Great music - terrible libretto - what is the best opera with the worst libretto.

[Bryn]

Adès: The Tempest, though the music he and his helper(s) wrote for it does, I feel, live down to Oakes's doggerel libretto, so it does not really fit the criteria of the threads' title.

[Master Jacques]

I suppose The Ice Break deserves a mention. Does anyone remember the eternal line, 'This chick wants ballin'?' and 'Play it cool.' But, on the other hand, perhaps we mock it because we simply don't expect this kind of language in opera.

Well, you remember those immortal lines, for starters! Though I think 'Play it cool' is from Dov's aria in The Knot Garden, yes? I'd say that both lines are unforgettable because they are so memorably set, and we don't expect them in opera because we are shocked when opera tries to engage with (what was fifty years ago) the here and now, as opposed to the dead and buried. In a hundred years nobody will be shocked by these excellent lines, so I don't think we should worry too much.

[gradus]

Ha! Och's moment of truth, where he looks round, sees how he's been had, and makes a hasty exit stage left ("Leopold, wir gehn!") is turned by Strauss into quite a triumphant business. It's one of the great exits in opera. He realises he can't beat this lot, when it comes to intrigue and charlatanism, and retreats to his own element. And unlike the sugary Marschallin, he ain't coming back!

A wonderful scene and Ochs for all his oafishness is, to me at least, wholly convincing as a character in words and music.

[Master Jacques]

Adès: The Tempest, though the music he and his helper(s) wrote for it does, I feel, live down to Oakes's doggerel libretto, so it does not really fit the criteria of the threads' title.

To be brutally honest, Bryn you have finally come up with a libretto which even I think is beyond terrible. Its only function is to remind us of the glories of the original play, at every wretched point. For me, it is by some measure Adès least satisfactory opera, as a direct result. It's as if he chickened out of setting a great text, in case he failed. And then failed anyway, because the Oakes text is so awful.

[Ein Heldenleben]

In the face of your roster of evidence, I must agree with you. But unlike Mozart and Beaumarchais in Figaro, who hold on to the idea that there might be a better social order around the corner, Hoffmanstahl is a cynic about the whole business of society.

Seriously though : Von Hofmannsthal was a conservative not a Marxist , very much a supporter of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and Der Rosenkavalier embodies “conservative “ values. But so confident are Strauss and HVH in those values in poking fun at them they subtly undermine them. I think they realise the game is up for the Old Vienna and also for their contemporary Vienna. That’s very much the sense I get from Zweig’s World of Yesteryear. The work, for me , reeks of decaying Freudian neurosis - fear of age , for of loss, even fear of sex. What I’m trying to say is that for all the ebullient confidence of the score it’s a momento mori really.

[Master Jacques]

Seriously though : Von Hofmannsthal was a conservative not a Marxist , very much a supporter of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and Der Rosenkavalier embodies “conservative “ values. But so confident are Strauss and HVH in those values in poking fun at them they subtly undermine them. I think they realise the game is up for the Old Vienna and also for their contemporary Vienna. That’s very much the sense I get from Zweig’s World of Yesteryear. The work, for me , reeks of decaying Freudian neurosis - fear of age , for of loss, even fear of sex. What I’m trying to say is that for all the ebullient confidence of the score it’s a momento mori really.

Wise words - I nearly used the phrase "memento mori" about it myself, in an earlier post, but you put it better than I could.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I suppose The Ice Break deserves a mention. Does anyone remember the eternal line, 'This chick wants ballin'?' and 'Play it cool.' But, on the other hand, perhaps we mock it because we simply don't expect this kind of language in opera.

On the other hand hats off to Tippett for engaging with contemporary slang, Trouble is it’s middle class England meets the ghetto. “ I say , steady on you mofo’s …”

[Ein Heldenleben]

Wise words - I nearly used the phrase "memento mori" about it myself, in an earlier post, but you put it better than I could.

Yes but you spelt it correctly!

[RichardB]

Seriously though : Von Hofmannsthal was a conservative not a Marxist , very much a supporter of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and Der Rosenkavalier embodies “conservative “ values. But so confident are Strauss and HVH in those values in poking fun at them they subtly undermine them. I think they realise the game is up for the Old Vienna and also for their contemporary Vienna. That’s very much the sense I get from Zweig’s World of Yesteryear. The work, for me , reeks of decaying Freudian neurosis - fear of age , for of loss, even fear of sex. What I’m trying to say is that for all the ebullient confidence of the score it’s a momento mori really.

I still can't really deal with Ochs' portrayal as a sort-of sympathetic character or the hamfistedly comedic treatment of his comeuppance. The impending collapse of the Austro-Hungarian empire is certainly always present, but for me there's too much emphasis on the beautiful chocolate box and not enough on the mouldy chocolates inside. Not that anything else could be expected from the composer of Schlagobers, or for that matter Metamorphosen.

[Master Jacques]

I still can't really deal with Ochs' portrayal as a sort-of sympathetic character or the hamfistedly comedic treatment of his comeuppance. The impending collapse of the Austro-Hungarian empire is certainly always present, but for me there's too much emphasis on the beautiful chocolate box and not enough on the mouldy chocolates inside. Not that anything else could be expected from the composer of Schlagobers, or for that matter Metamorphosen.

A valid position, to be sure. But it does bring to mind Sully's line, that "the English take their pleasures sadly". Never more so than with the besieged world of opera at the moment.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I still can't really deal with Ochs' portrayal as a sort-of sympathetic character or the hamfistedly comedic treatment of his comeuppance. The impending collapse of the Austro-Hungarian empire is certainly always present, but for me there's too much emphasis on the beautiful chocolate box and not enough on the mouldy chocolates inside. Not that anything else could be expected from the composer of Schlagobers, or for that matter Metamorphosen.

I can’t make up my mind about Metamorphosen. Is it profoundly moving or a long exercise in self-pity?

[ChandlersFord]

I can’t make up my mind about Metamorphosen. Is it profoundly moving or a long exercise in self-pity?

Wasn't Metamorphosen inspired by the destruction of the Dresden Semperoper? You might make a case for self-pity when placed in relation to the destruction of other things and people in that conflict. But that building had huge emotional significance for Strauss, so I can empathise with his feelings.

[ChandlersFord]

Seriously though : Von Hofmannsthal was a conservative not a Marxist , very much a supporter of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and Der Rosenkavalier embodies “conservative “ values. But so confident are Strauss and HVH in those values in poking fun at them they subtly undermine them. I think they realise the game is up for the Old Vienna and also for their contemporary Vienna. That’s very much the sense I get from Zweig’s World of Yesteryear. The work, for me , reeks of decaying Freudian neurosis - fear of age , for of loss, even fear of sex. What I’m trying to say is that for all the ebullient confidence of the score it’s a momento mori really.

Von H and Strauss were both conservatives.

[ChandlersFord]

I still can't really deal with Ochs' portrayal as a sort-of sympathetic character or the hamfistedly comedic treatment of his comeuppance. The impending collapse of the Austro-Hungarian empire is certainly always present, but for me there's too much emphasis on the beautiful chocolate box and not enough on the mouldy chocolates inside. Not that anything else could be expected from the composer of Schlagobers, or for that matter Metamorphosen.

I have seen Ochs played as a dangerous sexual predator as well as a buffoon (he is both, of course). The opera is strong enough to withstand different approaches to characterisation, and still work.

However, those wanting a Marxist critique of Vienna under the Habsburgs should look elsewhere; they were never going to get that from Strauss and von H.

[ChandlersFord]

Adès: The Tempest, though the music he and his helper(s) wrote for it does, I feel, live down to Oakes's doggerel libretto, so it does not really fit the criteria of the threads' title.

'O wond'rous day! O wond'rous land!
And I'm in love
With Ferdinand!'

(sic? - as quoted from memory).