'The forest green of G minor'

[kernelbogey]

Hannah French has just used this expression when introducing the Grande Piece in G 'Fantaisie ou Caprice que le Roy demandoit souvent' by Michel‐Richard de Lalande on Breakfast..

I've never been trained (nor trained myself) about key differences - although I am aware of their effect, and could have a guess at some when listening.

But I was struck by Hannah's arborial metaphor - or is it a metaphor?

Do musicians - do musical listeners - have such kinesthetic experiences of key?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I would say it’s a load of tosh, particularly as concert pitch is a moveable feast.

Similarly, the key of D major is no “brighter” than any other. It only got this reputation because baroque trumpets were pitched in D.

[Joseph K]

Hannah French has just used this expression when introducing the Grande Piece in G 'Fantaisie ou Caprice que le Roy demandoit souvent' by Michel‐Richard de Lalande on Breakfast..

I've never been trained (nor trained myself) about key differences - although I am aware of their effect, and could have a guess at some when listening.

But I was struck by Hannah's arborial metaphor - or is it a metaphor?

Do musicians - do musical listeners - have such kinesthetic experiences of key?

The word you're looking for is 'synaesthetic' and yes they do.

[burning dog]

She could be referring to the first "carbon neutral" football team

[Mal]

Is "kinesthetic" the right word? Do you mean "synesthetic? A kinesthetic experience is one relating to a person's awareness of the position and movement of the parts of the body by means of sensory organs (proprioceptors) in the muscles and joints. So if you dance to the music, foot tap, or pretend to be conductor, then you're having a kinesthetic experience.

"Synesthesia is when you hear music, but you see shapes. Or you hear a word or a name and instantly see a color. Synesthesia is a fancy name for when you experience one of your senses through another. For example, you might hear the name "Alex" and see green..."

Oliver Sacks' book Musicophilia discusses it at length.

A kinesthetic experience might be a synesthetic experience.

I only have kinesthetic synesthestic experiences. I remember a critic describing Karajan's 1960 performance of Beethoven's 2nd symphony as giving the rush of a speed skater hurtling through the dark countryside on thin ice. Yup that's what it felt like to me! Note the dark though - no visual synesthesia for me :( (Unless darkness counts as a visual synesthesia! But I had my eyes closed, I suspect the darkness was probably all actual. Anyway, no bright lights or "forest green" for me...)

[smittims]

I've always felt:

A major - scarlet

A minor - pale pink

B major - pale green

B minor - dark blue

C major - white

C minor - pale grey

D major - ultramarine

E major -a rich viridian green

F major - pale green

G major - orange

G minor - auburn.

I couldn't explain this. It may be simply the result of listening with one's eyes closed; the mind produces mental pictures. I have colours for the days of the week too.

[Mal]

The word you're looking for is 'synaesthetic' and yes they do.

A more precise word is Chromesthesia - sound-to-color synesthesia - Wikipedia article has good musical examples.

The bottom line is everyone who sees colours sees different colours.

The BBC should have a policy of not using personal synesthetic experiences to colour broadcast comments.

... also why "*forest* green"? At best, it's a very vague metaphor - just mentioning a "forest" inspires feelings of peace and calm in me, but maybe she was going more for "fear and trembling"? G minor has been considered the key through which Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart best expressed sadness and tragedy. "Dido's Lament" is in G minor. It's all very woolly...

[french frank]

Do musicians - do musical listeners - have such kinesthetic [synaesthetic] experiences of key?

Since synaesthesia appears to exist, there is no reason why it wouldn't apply as a transferred sensory perception in music. Does it enhance appreciation, focus it, clarify it for that person? I don't know, though I'm not sure how one person's synaesthetic experience is useful or meaningful to anyone else.

[smittims]

I think it's purely personal. If someone else doesn't feel G minor is 'auburn' it won't help them enjoy Mozart's quintet as it does me.

[Bryn]

I think it's purely personal. If someone else doesn't feel G minor is 'auburn' it won't help them enjoy Mozart's quintet as it does me.

I guess you must get rather different results for listening to the same works played at a pitch common during Mozart's life and that used by modern orchestras today. Do you find the character of different keys follows their designation or the prevailing pitch of the time?

[Ein Heldenleben]

Hannah French has just used this expression when introducing the Grande Piece in G 'Fantaisie ou Caprice que le Roy demandoit souvent' by Michel‐Richard de Lalande on Breakfast..

I've never been trained (nor trained myself) about key differences - although I am aware of their effect, and could have a guess at some when listening.

But I was struck by Hannah's arborial metaphor - or is it a metaphor?

Do musicians - do musical listeners - have such kinesthetic experiences of key?

I thought kinesthesia was a the sensory perception of limb movement and has nothing to do with colour. Interestingly I think many musicians do experience shadow sensations when listening to music e.g pianists listening to other pianists , violinists ditto and conductors . The awareness of bodily movement is pretty important in all music. However if you are thinking all the time about these sensations that will get in the way of performance. There’s a balance .
On the “colour “ of keys I’m with Alpie : the variation of tuning over the years means that to all intents and purposes any key can be at least a semitone flatter or sharper and in the case of organ music a good deal more than that. I heard a sixties recording of Otello yesterday where the key was pushing a Semitone flatter than a modern one. That semitone flatter is closer to how it would have been first performed.
Keys do have associations the obvious one being D major - Good for trumpets - Bach Gloria - Handel Messiah - yellow , gold (colour of trumpets ) . C minor 3 flats good for marching band wind and brass - funeral = black . C major compete opposite white. f sharp major lots of black keys - exotic and rarely used = purple.

[gradus]

I certainly have kinesthetic reactions to music but I don't see colours when listening though I've known several people who do.

[Pulcinella]

I certainly have kinesthetic reactions to music but I don't see colours when listening though I've known several people who do.

Does getting goose bumps (the tingle factor) count as having a kinesthetic reaction?

[gradus]

I would have thought so.

[smittims]

You're remark about different pitch for the same key is potentially interesting, Bryn. I haven't thought of that. Maybe K550 at A=415 sounds 'paler' auburn than at A=440. I'd have to do some research to be certain!