Composer query - Britten

[RichardB]

I am suspicious of this as an answer, but I will check further.

Um, Dave, you have already checked with two professional composers who have given the same answer. How much "further" do you want to go?

[Ein Heldenleben]

Um, Dave, you have already checked with two professional composers who have given the same answer. How much "further" do you want to go?

He’s right you know Dave . Ledger lines are a pain particularly on the piano when you have to start counting the lines up. It wasn’t until Liszt (I think ) invented the 8va with the dotted line - in response to growing keyboard size and his liking for treble twinklings - that relative sanity started prevailing.
Being an orchestral viola player and having to sight read around the stave would be a serious pain.
Surprised no one’s mentioned cello tenor clefs ..

[smittims]

With the cello there's also the conflict between writing in the treble clef at concert pitch and, an old convention, writing an octave higher. The tenor clef avoids this ambiguity. Even so, some composers discovered that the cello can indeed go above the treble clef at concert pitch. There's an example in the first movement of Elgar 1, about a minute into the d minor section after the opening (about 4 minutes into the movement depending on the tempo; sorry, I don' t have a score). And since we began with Britten, he takes the cellos well up into the treble clef in the 'Storm' from 'Peter Grimes'.

[Dave2002]

Um, Dave, you have already checked with two professional composers who have given the same answer. How much "further" do you want to go?

No they haven't, and the responses don't really make sense - to me at least. The fewer leger lines argument only works if the clef used is literally the treble clef, but if the 8va bassa clef notation is used then I doubt that the leger line issue is significant at all. I agree about switching between bass and treble clef, but there's surely no need to do that.

Is there some other factor which I'm missing here?

In the case of the cello sometimes parts go up in to the tenor clef, so maybe there are issues of range which make that appropriate - but do the same kind of issues apply to violas?
Cellos can have a range of over four octaves in the hands of a professional player, and similarly violins. Possibly violas don't have such a wide range for practical or physical reasons.

[Bryn]

https://www.revisemysite.com/pdfs/138--66-Sittaltoclefhelp.pdf

[ahinton]

No they haven't, and the responses don't really make sense - to me at least. The fewer leger lines argument only works if the clef used is literally the treble clef, but if the 8va bassa clef notation is used then I doubt that the leger line issue is significant at all. I agree about switching between bass and treble clef, but there's surely no need to do that.

Is there some other factor which I'm missing here?

In the case of the cello sometimes parts go up in to the tenor clef, so maybe there are issues of range which make that appropriate - but do the same kind of issues apply to violas?
Cellos can have a range of over four octaves in the hands of a professional player, and similarly violins. Possibly violas don't have such a wide range for practical or physical reasons.

The piano has been mentioned here and, as it is no problem for pianists to contend with reading material where five or more ledger lines may be required, it could perhaps be argued that writing for viola in treble clef would equally present no problem; however, the piano's range is vast compared to that of the viola and, as so much viola writing lies between is open C and, say, an octave above its open A, I really do see the point of writing for viola in alto clef except where sufficient material is at a pitch sufficently high to warrant a change of clef to treble.

[Dave2002]

The piano has been mentioned here and, as it is no problem for pianists to contend with reading material where five or more ledger lines may be required, it could perhaps be argued that writing for viola in treble clef would equally present no problem; however, the piano's range is vast compared to that of the viola and, as so much viola writing lies between is open C and, say, an octave above its open A, I really do see the point of writing for viola in alto clef except where sufficient material is at a pitch sufficently high to warrant a change of clef to treble.

I don't know whether this YT video throws any kind of light on things - and because the work in question is still in copyright in the UK I can't check quickly. However, if we assume that the notation is correct (which it may not be...) note that it switches between treble clef and alto clef - so if this is the score, then the argument ahout using more than one clef fails. I'm not trying to disagree for the sake of it - but just simply to try to understand why the alto clef continues to be used, when it would meke very little difference to use the 8va bassa notation.

Look at this about 12 minutes 12 seconds in, and in other places.

[RichardB]

No they haven't, and the responses don't really make sense - to me at least. The fewer leger lines argument only works if the clef used is literally the treble clef, but if the 8va bassa clef notation is used then I doubt that the leger line issue is significant at all. I agree about switching between bass and treble clef, but there's surely no need to do that.

Is there some other factor which I'm missing here?

In the case of the cello sometimes parts go up in to the tenor clef, so maybe there are issues of range which make that appropriate - but do the same kind of issues apply to violas?
Cellos can have a range of over four octaves in the hands of a professional player, and similarly violins. Possibly violas don't have such a wide range for practical or physical reasons.

I don't wish to be rude, but the fewer ledger lines answer is the correct one, and a respected higher education institution pays me to teach students things like this. You can continue with your random musings if you wish.

[Bryn]

OT, but birthday greetings to Alistair.

[ahinton]

OT, but birthday greetings to Alistair.

Very many thanks, Bryn!

[Serial_Apologist]

Very many thanks, Bryn!

And from me!!

[Lordgeous]

And from me!!

And also fro me Mt Hinton! Have a great day. David