Composer query - Britten

[Bryn]

My mentor, Richard Rodney Bennett, could sightread the most formidable contemporary stuff - Boulez for example!

Yes. He and Cardew gave the first UK performance of Boulez's Structures, book II.

[Dave2002]

John Ogdon could do this almost in his sleep. I don't know how that facility arose, still less developed, in him but, in a break in a recording session with him. someone placed a piece by his old friend Ronald steenson in front of him and he glanced through it and then not merely sight read it but performed it at sight (a big difference, what John did involving interpretative decision making without the time customarily required to be able to make them); at one point the page turner deliberateluy turned two pages at once but the evidently unpeturbed John continued to play the music that he'd clearly memorised and so carried on playing the piece as written. Only one other musician with whom I've ever had the privilege to work who could do this with such apparently natural ease was the soprano Jane Manning; I once told someone that these two seemed somehow able to sight perform from memory...

John Ogdon was phenomenal. He seemed to be able to read a whole page, memorise it and play so that he was actually reading pages ahead of what he was actually playing. Indeed if he was playing from sight I think he got upset if page turners didn't turn the page several pages ahead of what he was playing - unlike some others who get frantic if a page turner turns the current page too early as they haven't figured it out yet.

[Dave2002]

A very slight deviation from the thread topic - but why do violas still play using the alto clef?
It was noted earlier upstream that it is possible to write music for viola using other clefs, and then reset the clef later.

In appearance viola music written using the alto clef simply looks like music written for treble clef, but then moved down one note.
Most music could probably be written using treble clef, with the convention that the notes actually sound an octave lower,
To be more "correct" music could be written with the treble clef modified by the 8va bassa symbol - an '8' placed under the clef.

Is this due to a perhaps now unnecessary tradition? Is there really a need to keep the alto clef nowadays?

[Bryn]

A very slight deviation from the thread topic - but why do violas still play using the alto clef?
It was noted earlier upstream that it is possible to write music for viola using other clefs, and then reset the clef later.

In appearance viola music written using the alto clef simply looks like music written for treble clef, but then moved down one note.
Most music could probably be written using treble clef, with the convention that the notes actually sound an octave lower,
To be more "correct" music could be written with the treble clef modified by the 8va bassa symbol - an '8' placed under the clef.

Is this due to a perhaps now unnecessary tradition? Is there really a need to keep the alto clef nowadays?

I would presume the rationale is that using the alto clef keeps a greater proportion of the notation within the stave and thus require fewer ledger lines to be employed.

[RichardB]

I would presume the rationale is that using the alto clef keeps a greater proportion of the notation within the stave and thus require fewer ledger lines to be employed.

Indeed so. Plus, using only treble and bass clefs would require very many clef changes, which is far more confusing to look at than having the vast majority of viola parts in alto clef. It isn't a question of unnecessary tradition but of an instrument which so to speak falls between the cracks of notation. (Of course some would say violas are an unnecessary tradition!)

[Bryn]

. . . (Of course some would say violas are an unnecessary tradition!)

But not Beethoven or Hindemith, what?

[smittims]

Nor JS Bach, Britten and Vaughan Williams, all viola players.

[ahinton]

Indeed so. Plus, using only treble and bass clefs would require very many clef changes, which is far more confusing to look at than having the vast majority of viola parts in alto clef. It isn't a question of unnecessary tradition but of an instrument which so to speak falls between the cracks of notation. (Of course some would say violas are an unnecessary tradition!)

All true, of course (except the last bit!) - and I agree with you and Bryn here - but what of the standard clarinet in B flat or A, whose lowest notes are only a tone or minor third above the viola's open C? All parts for them are written in the treble clef so, even when the parts are transposed, up to three ledger lines below the treble stave may be called for - just one less than would apply in the case of the viola...

[Ein Heldenleben]

All true, of course (except the last bit!) - and I agree with you and Bryn here - but what of the standard clarinet in B flat or A, whose lowest notes are only a tone or minor third above the viola's open C? All parts for them are written in the treble clef so, even when the parts are transposed, up to three ledger lines below the treble stave may be called for - just one less than would apply in the case of the viola...

As some one who has dabbled in trying to play orchestral scores on the piano I will give ground on the alto clef partly because violas are often given a “filler” role in the harmony (apologies viola friends ) so you can more or less have a stab at guessing. Brass are are often a fifth or fourth away which for some reason is easier to transpose on the fly - they are also often play easily indented or guessed chords . But clarinets always seem to have some key bit of melody and I’m just not good enough at transposing - and a minor third is such a weird interval. Why do composers favour clarinets?
Someone once told me that repetiteurs at Covent Garden often played from the orchestral score which impressed me mightily. Then a few turned up playing on live streams during lockdown and I noticed that they didn’t. I guess most of them can play swathes of Mozart and Puccini from memory but try sight reading Salome from full score .hmmm….

[RichardB]

Why do composers favour clarinets?

If you really don't know : the clarinet has the widest timbral and dynamic range of any woodwind instrument, and is dynamically much more consistent over its different registers than the others, and also its variously sized incarnations mean that the same player can span an enormous pitch range as well, although each of the instruments also has its own distinct character and even the subtle difference between A and B flat instruments is musically valuable. The wide variety in timbre is greatly extended in various directions by multiphonics that span from extremely soft dyads to screeching clusters, and the keywork makes the possibilities for microtones and multiple trills etc., both extensive and relatively straightforward to use compositionally. Its ability to play smooth glissandi in its upper registers (see Gershwin) is shared only by the saxophone. I don't play the clarinet myself but I always feel very much at home working with it and I'm always finding new ideas when thinking about it. Speaking about transposition, when I was writing a duo for A clarinet and piano some years ago, the sketches have the piano part transposed a minor third higher so that I could see the many unisons as clearly as possible while working...

I don't see why repetiteurs would ever go to the trouble of playing from full scores!

[smittims]

Many people have said the clarinet is the nearest instrument to the human voice, and so often a solo instrunent emerging after a tutti is the clarinet, e.g. Dvorak, Elgar, Debussy. In the Ring Wagner uses the bass clarinet unaccompanied on many occasions to suggest private thoughts or human predicaments.

[Ein Heldenleben]

If you really don't know : the clarinet has the widest timbral and dynamic range of any woodwind instrument, and is dynamically much more consistent over its different registers than the others, and also its variously sized incarnations mean that the same player can span an enormous pitch range as well, although each of the instruments also has its own distinct character and even the subtle difference between A and B flat instruments is musically valuable. The wide variety in timbre is greatly extended in various directions by multiphonics that span from extremely soft dyads to screeching clusters, and the keywork makes the possibilities for microtones and multiple trills etc., both extensive and relatively straightforward to use compositionally. Its ability to play smooth glissandi in its upper registers (see Gershwin) is shared only by the saxophone. I don't play the clarinet myself but I always feel very much at home working with it and I'm always finding new ideas when thinking about it. Speaking about transposition, when I was writing a duo for A clarinet and piano some years ago, the sketches have the piano part transposed a minor third higher so that I could see the many unisons as clearly as possible while working...

I don't see why repetiteurs would ever go to the trouble of playing from full scores!

Thanks. Ask a silly question and you get an excellent answer . It’s also often said it’s closest to the human voice ( along with the cello). Though as a listener I would have the following audio preference oboe / cor anglais , clarinet , bass clarinet, flute , bass flute, bassoon contrabasson, piccolo .
I think plenty of repetiteurs are good enough to read off the score but it’s probably not a good idea because of the extra page turning needed. I guess with a new opera there may often not be a piano reduction though.
Incidentally one of the piano sight reading tests Bernstein was set when working as a conductors assistant ( possibly for Mitropolous ? ) was the orchestral score for Brahms Academic overture - full of transposing instruments. He sailed through partly because he’d sight read it as a duet with a child setting the words “I think it’s Santa Claus , oh yes it’s Santa Claus “ to the lively tune in the middle.
Leads me to suppose that one of his roles was to play the piano to help the conductor rehearse - plenty of orchestral scores have no piano version so maybe that’s the main role for this demanding skill.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Many people have said the clarinet is the nearest instrument to the human voice, and so often a solo instrunent emerging after a tutti is the clarinet, e.g. Dvorak, Elgar, Debussy. In the Ring Wagner uses the bass clarinet unaccompanied on many occasions to suggest private thoughts or human predicaments.

That Wagner bass clarinet sound is just about my favourite sound in opera…

[smittims]

In an amusing lecture on film music Bill Bailey noticed how often the villain decending to the basement is accompanied by a bass clarinet.

[Dave2002]

I would presume the rationale is that using the alto clef keeps a greater proportion of the notation within the stave and thus require fewer ledger lines to be employed.

I am suspicious of this as an answer, but I will check further.