Composer query - Britten

[Dave2002]

Did Benjamin Britten write music for transposing instruments at concert pitch as he was composing?

This probably can only be checked by looking at manuscripts.

[Ein Heldenleben]

You could try picking your way through this

http://www.warrequiem.org/composition-compositiondraft.html#page/96

It’s not easy.

[makropulos]

Looking at the start of the Dies Irae in this amazing manuscript, the answer to Dave2002's question is 'yes': all the brass entries are written at concert pitch there.
As a matter of interest –why do you want to know?

[Ein Heldenleben]

Looking at the start of the Dies Irae in this amazing manuscript, the answer to Dave2002's question is 'yes': all the brass entries are written at concert pitch there.
As a matter of interest –why do you want to know?

Thanks - no matter how hard I tried I couldn’t scroll round the manuscript.
A shame as it is as you say amazing.

[Dave2002]

Looking at the start of the Dies Irae in this amazing manuscript, the answer to Dave2002's question is 'yes': all the brass entries are written at concert pitch there.
As a matter of interest –why do you want to know?

I suspected he wrote at concert pitch. But couldn’t confirm that. I asked the people at the Red House on a recent visit, and they didn’t seem to have a quick answer, and the answer I eventually received seemed ambiguous and maybe some of the people there did not understand my question.

I saw a score of Noyes’ Fludde, which seemed to show bugle parts in C, which raised my suspicions slightly. However other instrumentation such as trumpets and horns would show the process more clearly.

Apparently Stravinsky used to write at concert pitch. In Britten’s case he would eventually have had assistants who would produce the scores with the transposed parts if needed. I gather Imogen Holst often helped him as an assistant.

OTOH I know some musicians who are familiar with transposing instruments, and some of them prefer to work with transposed parts.

I am interested in how different composers and musicians react to transposing instruments and their scores and parts.

[makropulos]

I suspected he wrote at concert pitch. But couldn’t confirm that. I asked the people at the Red House on a recent visit, and they didn’t seem to have a quick answer, and the answer I eventually received seemed ambiguous and maybe some of the people there did not understand my question. ...
I am interested in how different composers and musicians react to transposing instruments and their scores and parts.

It's a very interesting question. In some cases it's reflected in the printed scores: Messiaen always wrote everything in C (except in a few early pieces) and his scores are also printed with everything in C (while the parts are transposed as necessary). The same is true of the Prokofiev scores I've seen. But as for composing, I think there's going to be a distinction (even for composers who write transposed parts) between preliminary things (short scores, sketches and the like), and the finished manuscript. The latter is likely to have transposed parts, while it's incredibly unlikely at earlier stages because quite often the orchestration hasn't even been decided on. What the War Requiem ms. suggests is that Britten seems to have got to quite an advanced stage (beyond sketching, at least), with specific instruments in mind, but still wrote out their music at concert pitch.

[ardcarp]

I personally don't see anything to be ashamed about writing your initial composition with transposing instruments un-transposed. It doesn't imply that you don't 'understand' them. Not being a string-player, I remember as a student writing the obligatory string quartets with the viola part not in a C-clef, and re-jigging it afterwards.

Another thing is the slight downer people have on composers who compose at the keyboard/piano. I personally never did because I've always had the knack of 'hearing' what I write. But I don't see any need for shame. After all, it's the creative ability that counts.

Brass band arranging is fun, because nearly all instruments play in the treble clef, transposed, included the double B flat bass tubas. The anomaly is that the bass trombone doesn't. I personally used to sketch out a two or three stave version and then write the parts afterwards. You get quite quick at it.

The son of a friend of mine Iain Farringdon, a professional arranger, is often called upon at very short notice to produce large amounts of stuff (including the individual parts) for symphony orchestra. He did some reduced scoring for this year's Last Night of the Proms, which was never used. I think he got paid nonetheless

[smittims]

I've always felt that a composer who thinks of his transposing instruments as such will be able to write more idiomatic parts for them; he will understand where the better and weaker notes lie on the instrument, and will avoid writing impracticable parts, e.g. horns too high.

There's a clarinet solo at the end of 'En Saga' which is all across the break, the weakest part of the instrument. It would sound better played on a basset horn.

[RichardB]

I've always felt that a composer who thinks of his transposing instruments as such will be able to write more idiomatic parts for them; he will understand where the better and weaker notes lie on the instrument, and will avoid writing impracticable parts, e.g. horns too high.

This isn't the first time we've discussed this subject here, although I don't think you were around the last time. Someone was saying they didn't believe composers regularly wrote their scores at concert pitch but in fact most 20th and 21st century composers did and still do. I don't think it necessarily means they don't take account of instrumental issues like the ones you describe, just as it there's nothing particularly "good" or "bad" about composing at the piano, or not doing so.

[Dave2002]

It's a very interesting question. In some cases it's reflected in the printed scores: Messiaen always wrote everything in C (except in a few early pieces) and his scores are also printed with everything in C (while the parts are transposed as necessary). The same is true of the Prokofiev scores I've seen.

Printed published scores can always be produced with transposed parts, as either the composer or assistants can produce transposed parts later. Nowadays, with digital copies, it ought to be relatively easy to provide scores and also individual parts in both concert pitch and/or transposed versions.

Maybe the conductor’s and players’ final scores and parts should generally be at transposed pitches for transposing instruments to make things easier at rehearsals. Before that some composers and arrangers may prefer to work with scores at concert pitch.

[Ein Heldenleben]

This isn't the first time we've discussed this subject here, although I don't think you were around the last time. Someone was saying they didn't believe composers regularly wrote their scores at concert pitch but in fact most 20th and 21st century composers did and still do. I don't think it necessarily means they don't take account of instrumental issues like the ones you describe, just as it there's nothing particularly "good" or "bad" about composing at the piano, or not doing so.

I seem to remember reading that both Vaughan Williams and Britten wrote a lot in their head as it were but would check chords on the piano. In Britten’s case not a bad idea as they tended to be quite complex. Some of RVW ‘s work is so contrapuntally complex its difficult to see how a piano would help. This writing in short score is something Wagner used to do - But then he also often started with piano sketches and built up from that though the original themes would often be easily notated so called leitmotifs.
To give some idea of the keenness of Britten’s ear it’s said that as a child he accurately notated the sound of his parents dinner gong - including the harmonics.

[makropulos]

Printed published scores can always be produced with transposed parts, as either the composer or assistants can produce transposed parts later. Nowadays, with digital copies, it ought to be relatively easy to provide scores and also individual parts in both concert pitch and/or transposed versions.

Maybe the conductor’s and players’ final scores and parts should generally be at transposed pitches for transposing instruments to make things easier at rehearsals. Before that some composers and arrangers may prefer to work with scores at concert pitch.

Yes, as you say, it's relatively easy – but the point is that some composers (Messiaen and Prokofiev, among others) choose to present all the instruments in the score at pitch, while the parts are transposed as needed. And yes, doing it that way can make for occasional complications or confusions at rehearsals.

[ahinton]

Yes, as you say, it's relatively easy – but the point is that some composers (Messiaen and Prokofiev, among others) choose to present all the instruments in the score at pitch, while the parts are transposed as needed. And yes, doing it that way can make for occasional complications or confusions at rehearsals.

Initially I did transpose parts for transposing instruments in scores but soon stopped doing this and wrote "in C" except for parts for piccolo, contrabassoon and double basses trasposed at the octave which is what I imagine most composers who write "in C" do in their scores.

[Lordgeous]

Initially I did transpose parts for transposing instruments in scores but soon stopped doing this and wrote "in C" except for parts for piccolo, contrabassoon and double basses trasposed at the octave which is what I imagine most composers who write "in C" do in their scores.

Ditto! Though there was always a slight feeling of guilt writing in C! Good to hear that some major composers also wrote in C.

[Dave2002]

Ditto! Though there was always a slight feeling of guilt writing in C! Good to hear that some major composers also wrote in C.

So do we have any insight into why Prokofiev and Messiaen chose to write in C?