If you could control Radio 3...

[oddoneout]

They have five and a half hours to play with. Not difficult to find a space for the odd novelty now and again.

I'm not sure that "odd novelty" is the best way to describe the likes of these https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/art...omen-composers

In terms of space, Afternoon Concert has a hefty chunk of airtime, which could and should be used for airing work by less familiar composers, as well as the same old same old, but isn't. Hence my comment that the morning schedules - the lightweight (unacceptable) face of R3 - is where I hear music by the people in that portrait line up, among others. The downside is of course not hearing full/longer works.

[french frank]

Some are but others make a good fist of presenting, with their own research regarding the works presented (no, not merely a quick glance at Wikipedia). .

But even in those cases, a bit of intelligent research doesn't make up for the fact that the programme format is boring and stale. Some people don't see/hear it as boring and stale, but then some people don't like anything to change either.

I'm not sure that "odd novelty" is the best way to describe the likes of these https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/art...omen-composers

In terms of space, Afternoon Concert has a hefty chunk of airtime, which could and should be used for airing work by less familiar composers, as well as the same old same old, but isn't. Hence my comment that the morning schedules - the lightweight (unacceptable) face of R3 - is where I hear music by the people in that portrait line up, among others. The downside is of course not hearing full/longer works.

Exactly. Lightweight - and five and a half hours of it!

[oddoneout]

Exactly. Lightweight - and five and a half hours of it!

Are none of those in the list worth broadcasting on the heavyweight slots then? There have been male contributions to the "not often heard" section as well lest this descend into a gender bias issue.

There's a name not on the list for some reason - Dora Pejacevic - I think Petroc played several times and was well received by listeners. That's probably the kiss of death though - played on the morning schedules and liked by lightweight listeners...

[french frank]

Are none of those in the list worth broadcasting on the heavyweight slots then? There have been male contributions to the "not often heard" section as well lest this descend into a gender bias issue.

There's a name not on the list for some reason - Dora Pejacevic - I think Petroc played several times and was well received by listeners. That's probably the kiss of death though - played on the morning schedules and liked by lightweight listeners...

But none of the criticism of Breakfast or Essential Classics is aimed at specific works, some of which may well be unfamiliar and worth playing. As I said in my response to Bryn, it's the programme format of presenter/announcer input (variable) and a CD-based sequence of short works/extracts made up frequently of a few non-classical pieces slotted in; and minimal information.

In short, you have to be able to tolerate that format in the first place or you won't be listening and don't hear the few unusual pieces. If you like the format, the programme is tailored for you. Nothing to complain about. If you don't like it, the mornings are a write-off, pace the odd novelty (as in new, unusual item). It's not surprising that some/many people DO like it. Some/many other people think R3 could be doing something better with those hours.

[Serial_Apologist]

But none of the criticism of Breakfast or Essential Classics is aimed at specific works, some of which may well be unfamiliar and worth playing. As I said in my response to Bryn, it's the programme format of presenter/announcer input (variable) and a CD-based sequence of short works/extracts made up frequently of a few non-classical pieces slotted in; and minimal information.

In short, you have to be able to tolerate that format in the first place or you won't be listening and don't hear the few unusual pieces. If you like the format, the programme is tailored for you. Nothing to complain about. If you don't like it, the mornings are a write-off, pace the odd novelty (as in new, unusual item). It's not surprising that some/many people DO like it. Some/many other people think R3 could be doing something better with those hours.

It has hopefully occurred to some that the short attention span increasingly catered for, and not just in the broadcasting media, is in tune with the consumer mindset conditioned to need constant jostling to be motivated - the individual-focussed equivalent of the public PA loudspeaker in totalitarian regimes - to stimulate wants whose satisfaction keeps unsustainable product manufacturers afloat. Subliminally, this is the role of mass entertainment in our time. What will become of the de-sensitised mindset, weaned to consume come the day when the electric supply is restricted or even cut off, and batteries too scarce to be affordable, remains anybody's guess. At least those of us who have become "our own Walkmen" with our own inner repertoire will have something inside us to fall back on.

[smittims]

Well-put, serialapologist. Susan Tomes covers this matter in depth in her fine book 'Sleeping in Temples' .

Instead of pandering to the instant-gratification channel-hoppers, Radio 3 could (should) be doing something to convince them that classical music is more than worth the effort . Among other things, they seem to shy away from the essential point that in order to get the best form it one does need to listen fully to a work from beginning to end .

[hmvman]

Subliminally, this is the role of mass entertainment in our time. What will become of the de-sensitised mindset, weaned to consume come the day when the electric supply is restricted or even cut off, and batteries too scarce to be affordable, remains anybody's guess. At least those of us who have become "our own Walkmen" with our own inner repertoire will have something inside us to fall back on.

Some of us will be thankful that we have wind-up gramophones to keep us going during power cuts....

[Bryn]

Some of us will be thankful that we have wind-up gramophones to keep us going during power cuts....

Don't remind me. When my father died, his widow (not my mother) threw out the cylinder player and all the cylinders I had rescued for him from my mother's loft. It was not even put on eBay or offered it back to me to collect. She just saw it as worthless junk to be cleared. Ah well . . .

[french frank]

I wonder whether the problem is simply that as times change (damn them!) and generation succeeds generation, few people now want belgove's "brainy and challenging"? How many of those who enjoy the morning programmes even look for 'brainy and challenging' on R3, and chafe because they don't find it? If the answer is simply "not enough", the BBC/R3 will consider that a good reason for dropping it, like a TV programme that doesn't come up with good enough viewing figures.

Composer of the Week would be an exception but it does have an extremely (extremely) limited scope, leaving the field wide open for other material. Speculating: do people feel they did enough brainy and challenging when they were at school/college and they don't need any more? Radio is for entertainment and a bit of information, but please, not education?

[oddoneout]

But none of the criticism of Breakfast or Essential Classics is aimed at specific works, some of which may well be unfamiliar and worth playing. As I said in my response to Bryn, it's the programme format of presenter/announcer input (variable) and a CD-based sequence of short works/extracts made up frequently of a few non-classical pieces slotted in; and minimal information.

In short, you have to be able to tolerate that format in the first place or you won't be listening and don't hear the few unusual pieces. If you like the format, the programme is tailored for you. Nothing to complain about. If you don't like it, the mornings are a write-off, pace the odd novelty (as in new, unusual item). It's not surprising that some/many people DO like it. Some/many other people think R3 could be doing something better with those hours.

I agree and have said many times in the past when the subject has come up that the Essential Classics slot could and should be doing something different and better; I don't think, for it is necessary for the Breakfast slot to be ditched for various reasons which again I have mentioned previously. If novelties, unusual pieces(although I prefer the term less well known composers to reduce confusion with some of the other items that appear in the morning schedules...) are well received before midday why is that interest not picked up sometimes and carried into the afternoon slot at least, even if not evening concerts which are subject to other constraints)? Or has R3 management decided that there is nothing in common between the morning audience and the pm audience, they are mutually exclusive
So in terms of the original question, more talking about music type programmes; expand (restore) the Early Music show; make use of the EM format - focusing on a topic, whether composer, instrument, period, style, for examining other areas of music; use contributors, experts, enthusiasts to their potential instead of straitjacketing by time and notions of "current" (aka latest gimmick) programme style; more use of music from other countries beyond the european 3 or 4 - I still remember a wonderful afternoon years ago of music from antipodean composers - note that I'm not talking about world music but what composers elsewhere have done with western style music; stop the creep of dumbing down/uniform programme style, the latest victim being Afternoon Concert, which is increasingly chitchat, snippets, nonsense music sequences and, latest tweak, listener suggestions.
But above all - listen to the listeners and work with them rather than imposing out of touch, irrelevant and unwanted ideas from the top down.
Unfortunately it seems to me that there is an agenda which is nothing to do with a genuine wish to both fulfill its remit and retain and extend audiences to the benefit of the greater good - R3 as a microcosm of political aims in modern day GB?

[Serial_Apologist]

Well-put, serialapologist. Susan Tomes covers this matter in depth in her fine book 'Sleeping in Temples' .

Instead of pandering to the instant-gratification channel-hoppers, Radio 3 could (should) be doing something to convince them that classical music is more than worth the effort . Among other things, they seem to shy away from the essential point that in order to get the best form it one does need to listen fully to a work from beginning to end .

Thanks smittims - I must check out Susan Tomes.

[Serial_Apologist]

I wonder whether the problem is simply that as times change (damn them!) and generation succeeds generation, few people now want belgove's "brainy and challenging"? How many of those who enjoy the morning programmes even look for 'brainy and challenging' on R3, and chafe because they don't find it? If the answer is simply "not enough", the BBC/R3 will consider that a good reason for dropping it, like a TV programme that doesn't come up with good enough viewing figures.

Well there will be less, because there will have been less on offer to guide them. Younger generations than ours - arguably those born later than 1990 - are looking elsewhere for musical adventure - to alternative rock, hip-hop, and crossovers of the sorts we are hearing lots of on J to Z these days, typified in last week's focus on the Notting Hill Carnival. These different kinds of music do feature on Late Junction in sometimes raw form, as well as becoming increasingly apparent in some of the younger generation of composers featured on the New Music Show, though, for me at any rate, the yield is pretty thin from a rewarding musical experience point of view. Some will argue a measured, gradual embrace of musical cultures which have made their homes and evolved here, such as Reggae/Drum 'n' Bass/New Soul, to healthy, positive adjustment to the pluses of living in a multicultural, multiracial society that no longer confers second class status based on loaded assumptions; others, such as myself, welcoming such change as progressive but in two minds about ditching our own, if I could put it that way. Still others - and I could think there are one or two here who regularly and valuably point out that a critical evaluation of the interrelationship between all these putatively new areas of creativity (in the arts and cultures outside as well as inside the music world) need not necessarily stand as a barrier to creative innovation: we could be at a point in history analogous to the time when composers began to turn away from material dependence on church and aristocratic sponsorship, the possibilities in terms of how we are all to carry on infinite.

Composer of the Week would be an exception but it does have an extremely (extremely) limited scope, leaving the field wide open for other material. Speculating: do people feel they did enough brainy and challenging when they were at school/college and they don't need any more? Radio is for entertainment and a bit of information, but please, not education?

Like many of us I was and am self-taught, and this may be a bit of a generalisation, but from having observed radicalisation taking place among those of my generation who were not brought up on classical music, what seemed noticeable was how this worked through to the desire for more complex explanations for the forces shaping society than mainstream education and family offered, and for corresponding arts and musics. While one can be thankful for what one has gained, either from background, education, or even the existence of Radio 3 at a particular juncture, one always tries to be mindful of other perspectives and the experiences shaping them, along with ones own attitudes towards them.

[hmvman]

Don't remind me. When my father died, his widow (not my mother) threw out the cylinder player and all the cylinders I had rescued for him from my mother's loft. It was not even put on eBay or offered it back to me to collect. She just saw it as worthless junk to be cleared. Ah well . . .

[pastoralguy]

[smittims]

I fear that many young people today do not even know that classical music exists, so rarely is it placed in their way, thanks to the dumbing-down of the media and education.