Debbie Wiseman talks utter guff about "classical music" on the Today programme.

[Bryn]

From about 8:20 this morning, there was a discussion on Radio 4's Today programme about what constitutes "classical music". First up was Debbie Wiseman who insisted that all classical music had to be fully notated. Any improvisation was right out. What utter nonsense! As Nitin Sawhney, who followed her 'contribution' swiftly pointed out, both Beethoven and Bach were highly renowned classical improvisers. On a wide purview, has the egregious Wiseman never encountered improvised cadenzas in concerto performances, or certain works by the likes of Boulez, Rzewski, Stockhausen etc.? Again, as Sawney rightly pointed out, there is a whole swathe of classical music from the aural tradition of South Asia, etc. What an ignorant commentator on music Wiseman showed herself to be.

[Bryn]

Could a Host please correct the blatant typos in the thread heading? My ire got the better of me.

[RichardB]

That's her off my Xmas card list then.

[french frank]

Who is Debbie Wiseman?

[burning dog]

Another person who disagrees

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2020/jun/06/why-classical-musicians-need-to-learn-how-to-improvise

[Bryn]

Who is Debbie Wiseman?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debbie_Wiseman

She seems to be a favourite 'go to' for comments on 'classical music' for the dumbed-down Beeb. She is quite often to be found making similarly inane comments during the intervals of televised Proms.

[gradus]

Must try and listen so am not for or against but perhaps she was making the not unreasonable point that virtually everything we talk about on here is actually written down and published as sheet music that we can attempt to play - the same notes every time if we're lucky and without the need to improvise. Woe betide anyone who messes with Beethoven 7 etc, as we have recently seen. But as I didn't hear her I could well be misunderstanding the point.

[french frank]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debbie_Wiseman

She seems to be a favourite 'go to' for comments on 'classical music' for the dumbed-down Beeb. She is quite often to be found making similarly inane comments during the intervals of televised Proms.

I'd already been forced to look (but didn't get as far as Wikipedia). She is 'the most popular living British composer'. That established, I suppose what is questionable is having her on to define 'classical music'. Possibly, it defies definition, and if so people are free to 'define' it in any way they feel comfortable with. By my personal definition - and leaving aside the nicety of 'classical proper' and 'general classical' - (Western) classical music is a music of the past. It's no longer composed in any way meaningful way. Teasing out whether, purely for example, Vaughan Williams is 'classical' but Schoenberg isn't shows one of two things: either there is a huge overlap in 'serious, non-commercial' music; or it isn't possible to make any distinction and 'classical music' is still alive and well. I'm not too bothered about which it is.

So I would come back to my initial point: why is she chosen to pontiificate on the subject, if she was pontificating and not hedging all her comments round with the sort of personal provisos (Who can say? But I like to think of it as…) that I have)?

[RichardB]

She is 'the most popular living British composer' (...) why is she chosen to pontiificate on the subject

You answered your own question I think.

[visualnickmos]

Who on earth is Debbie Wiseman? Is she important? Should I have heard of her?

[RichardB]

virtually everything we talk about on here is actually written down and published as sheet music that we can attempt to play - the same notes every time if we're lucky and without the need to improvise.

Virtually everything? There's Baroque ornamentation (which I mentioned in a post yesterday), classical cadenzas (as mentioned above by Bryn), numerous instances of composition since the mid 20th century which involves unorthodox notation or none at all, electronic music, classical music of north and south India, Indonesia, Japan, China, the Middle East etc. All of these things have been called "classical" (although not all of them by me!). Of course there's always going to be disagreement about what if anything qualifies as "classical", especially where money ("the classical charts") and prestige (music awards etc.) are concerned, but in the end who cares? The problem isn't whether you define music as one thing or another but the fact that ignorant people are wheeled out on R3 as if they were experts.

[cloughie]

Who on earth is Debbie Wiseman? Is she important? Should I have heard of her?

Not just me then?

Googled her and apparently big in film and television music but clearly not the best musically informed!

She has studied piano and composition so why is her knowledge of improvisation and structure of music apparently not great?

[Belgrove]

The context of the piece was the controversy surrounding nominations for this year’s Grammy awards:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/feb/20/how-is-this-classical-music-composers-fury-at-grammys-shortlist

The other interviewee in the Today programme, Nitin Sawhney, would not be drawn on providing a definition. So a lot of fuss about nothing really.

[RichardB]

The context of the piece was the controversy surrounding nominations for this year’s Grammy awards

Quite. Well, the nominated piece by Jon Batiste is obviously a lot closer to jazz than to what anyone listening without prejudice would describe as classical - but, as I said above, where cash and/or prestige are concerned all bets are off.

[french frank]

You answered your own question I think.

Not expecting a phone call, then, Richard?