Less common keys

[Ein Heldenleben]

Yes, post #2 is absolutely correct. Chopin did like keys with a lot of 'black notes'. This may well be because the fingers fly over the sharps (call them flats if you will) more easily for certain melodic patterns. I am no great pianist, but one of my party pieces is Chopin's Fantasy Impromptu in C# minor. Difficult to imagine playing that in the 'easy' key of A minor.

If you're doing the higher gardes of theory Auferstehen, I'd really suggest getting a few lessons from someone in the know. There are so many tricks, e.g. C sharp up to E flat might sound like a major 2nd, but for Ass Board purposes it's actually a diminished 3rd.

BTW I did hear that the ABRSM is changing its theory syllabus for Grades I - V. (Grade V is the one you have to get before progressing to Grade VI practical.) But I haven't checked up on that because I've been out of the teaching loop for a long time.

The C Sharp minor arpeggios in the left hand for a start would be trickier in A minor . Much easier to “pivot “ over the black keys and I think it’s less of a stretch. Trouble is I just can’t nail the r.h. downward run with the tricky backward steps in it…

[mikealdren]

As EH says, primarily piano music and lots of Chopin.
D flat minor is quite rare; apart from Chopin (the Berceuse, Etude Op.25 No.8, Mazurka no.20, Nocturne No.8, the raindrop prelude, waltzes 6 and 13) there's also the Khatchaturian piano concerto, Prokofiev's 1st piano concerto, Liszt hungarian rhapsody No.6 and consolations 3 &4 and Etudes Waldesrauschen and Harmonies du soir, Saint-Saens Violin Romance Op.37, Shostakovich string quartet No. 12 and other piano pieces that come in set of various keys.

As to B flat minor, lots of piano music here as well. Major works include Rachmaninov piano sonata No.2 (BaL the other week), Shostakovitch symphony No.13, Walton symphony No.1 and of course, Tchaikovsky piano concerto No.1

[rauschwerk]

A Bach fugue that made my mind boggle when I was a teenager is the C sharp major fugue from Book 1 of the '48'. It modulates sharpwards and there is a cadence in E sharp minor (enharmonic F minor) - 8 sharps! I still don't know why he didn't notate the piece in D flat major.

[Serial_Apologist]

Nothing atonal for the moment please!

Mario

But things became so much simpler once atonality did away with the need for all those double sharps/double flats/intervallic definitions stuff that had overwhelmed diatonic theoretical desiderata - as this discussion goes to show!

[EnemyoftheStoat]

A Bach fugue that made my mind boggle when I was a teenager is the C sharp major fugue from Book 1 of the '48'. It modulates sharpwards and there is a cadence in E sharp minor (enharmonic F minor) - 8 sharps! I still don't know why he didn't notate the piece in D flat major.

Because firstly he was Bach and secondly it's C# major . He could have proved the point about equal temperament, had he felt the need, by notating it in D flat, admittedly.

[Bryn]

Because firstly he was Bach and secondly it's C# major . He could have proved the point about equal temperament, had he felt the need, by notating it in D flat, admittedly.

There again, he was rather more into well-temperament, was he not?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

A Bach fugue that made my mind boggle when I was a teenager is the C sharp major fugue from Book 1 of the '48'. It modulates sharpwards and there is a cadence in E sharp minor (enharmonic F minor) - 8 sharps! I still don't know why he didn't notate the piece in D flat major.

Some editions do notate it in D flat as an alternative.

[Braunschlag]

Some editions do notate it in D flat as an alternative.

Thought so, seem to remember that in the AB green cover publications, I found it easier to read.

[Rolmill]

Good One. Here’s one I can think of only one sung opera melody that starts with a major 7th . It’s a duet …

Duet for Aida and Radames in the final scene?

[Ein Heldenleben]

Duet for Aida and Radames in the final scene?

Superb . Absolutely right . I can’t think of another (song ) melody that starts with one .I suspect because it’s difficult to sing. It sounds magnificent in the Verdi though . One of the great moments in opera …

Another opening octave leap Beatles Can’t Buy Me Love …

[ahinton]

Bali Hai (South Pacific)?

Yes. Also Delightful, Delicious, Delovely opens with a descending octave.

[RichardB]

But things became so much simpler once atonality did away with the need for all those double sharps/double flats/intervallic definitions stuff that had overwhelmed diatonic theoretical desiderata - as this discussion goes to show!

Atonality doesn't do away with the need for double accidentals actually - if you want to write a chord consisting of E, F, F# and G, the simplest way to notate it is Dx, E#, F# and G.

Returning to Marco's post, C# and Db might be the same key on keyboard instruments but on strings they aren't really.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Atonality doesn't do away with the need for double accidentals actually - if you want to write a chord consisting of E, F, F# and G, the simplest way to notate it is Dx, E#, F# and G.

Returning to Marco's post, C# and Db might be the same key on keyboard instruments but on strings they aren't really.

Slightly flatter if D flat , slightly sharper if C sharp ? Didn’t some one do some research on horn players who instinctively sharpen leading notes and flatten minor sevenths …

[RichardB]

Slightly flatter if D flat , slightly sharper if C sharp ? Didn’t some one do some research on horn players who instinctively sharpen leading notes and flatten minor sevenths …

Yes. Singers do that too (assuming they can sing in tune in the first place) - and, of course, in the early days of what we now call tonality, in the period 1550-1600 or so, keyboard instruments were built which could play such differences - see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhGwjgZ8zIY for example!

[ahinton]

Atonality doesn't do away with the need for double accidentals actually - if you want to write a chord consisting of E, F, F# and G, the simplest way to notate it is Dx, E#, F# and G.

Indeed - and have a look at some of Roslavets's piano music! Not quite 2atonal", admittedly, but...