Categorisation of Music

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  • Bryn
    Banned
    • Mar 2007
    • 24688

    The pianist/head of music at City, University of London, Ian Pace has today posted on FB a couple of longish extracts from:



    Both are of relevance to this thread. Here's the second:

    ‘As long as humans live, songs won’t die, just as telling stories never will, but the basic structure of pop has collapsed, leaving just fragmented blasts of slippery assembled energy relying on increasingly present history to maintain the illusion that there is such a thing as a scene or a collection of scenes, containing new trends, leading to the next set of new trends. The initial energy that made pop music happen so instantly and persuasively – the charts, the sleeves, the photography, the record labels, the two-sided vinyl album and single, the way that one thing developed into the next thing, mostly leaving the last thing behind, other than something to fold back into the new thing, but in a new form – has become defunct. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing, just what has happened after all that movement, now that there is such a glut, of all the music happening now, and all the music that ever happened, all of it available to pluck out of the air, as the world becomes one big mobile playground, combined with one big ideological battleground.
    The pop stars of today are the machines that the music is made on and then played through; the groups and singers that represent the machines and computers are like travelling salesmen, demonstrating the wares, acting out the necessary human-ish element of engagement, going through the motions of dressing up and performance. Pop stars are an impaired, occasionally inspired community of manipulated, manipulating commercial travellers, which has its attractions, but has less and less to do with music and more to do with a kind of dazed re-tuning of ancient show-business conventions. The next generation may well find all of this as stale and moribund as we do Vera Lynn and Cliff Richard.
    Essentially, nothing now changes in pop but the technology; it used to be that way, but there was also an attached level of purpose and drama, of stylistic audacity, and even subversive, discriminatory focus, of exciting new forms of glamour and presentation that didn’t seem mere anagrams of previous glamorous presentations.
    Technology has taken over and carries pop music all over the place, and even beyond all over the place. It’s not, as such, music any more; it’s either a sentimental wallowing in the past, for older people – just like classical music once seemed – or basic adolescent urges reframed using the new machines, so that today’s pop and rock is essentially about what it was about in the fifties and sixties, with different coverings, body shakes and street noises used to ensure it sounds like today, for standard as-cynical-as-ever commercial reasons. Music that was all about change has become music that is all about nothing changing, or changing so quickly it cannot be detected outside its own circuit.’

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    • Ein Heldenleben
      Full Member
      • Apr 2014
      • 6761

      Originally posted by Bryn View Post
      The pianist/head of music at City, University of London, Ian Pace has today posted on FB a couple of longish extracts from:



      Both are of relevance to this thread. Here's the second:
      He’s right . The ubiquity of music , the lack of a old style Friday release , the meaningless of the charts make the idea of pop redundant. The fact the oldsters are still churning it out is both admirable and ridiculous. There was a Cliff concert on telly last week. At 80 years old still singing about his Living Doll. Amazing he can still hit the notes (just) but isn’t pop really for youngsters?

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      • gurnemanz
        Full Member
        • Nov 2010
        • 7382

        Originally posted by Ein Heldenleben View Post
        isn’t pop really for youngsters?
        Yes. But I still really enjoy rather a lot of the pop music which I did over 50 years ago.

        Wilfrid Mellers was Professor of Music when we did our post-grad language teaching Cert Ed at York in 1971-72. The Music Dept had an excellent programme of concerts and lectures open to all, (eg a talk/concert from John Cage, Fritz Hennenberg on Brecht/Weill). We were lucky enough that our time there also coincided with Mellers' series of lectures on the Beatles, later a well-known book. He started with "I Saw Her Standing There" booming out of huge speakers in a large lecture theatre. The eminent, sober-looking professor in his mid 50s looked at his audience and intoned: "She was just seventeen, you know what I mean", adding .... "and we do, we know just what they mean!"

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        • jayne lee wilson
          Banned
          • Jul 2011
          • 10711

          Originally posted by gurnemanz View Post
          Yes. But I still really enjoy rather a lot of the pop music which I did over 50 years ago.

          Wilfrid Mellers was Professor of Music when we did our post-grad language teaching Cert Ed at York in 1971-72. The Music Dept had an excellent programme of concerts and lectures open to all, (eg a talk/concert from John Cage, Fritz Hennenberg on Brecht/Weill). We were lucky enough that our time there also coincided with Mellers' series of lectures on the Beatles, later a well-known book. He started with "I Saw Her Standing There" booming out of huge speakers in a large lecture theatre. The eminent, sober-looking professor in his mid 50s looked at his audience and intoned: "She was just seventeen, you know what I mean", adding .... "and we do, we know just what they mean!"
          Yeah....not a lyric you'd get far with, or get away with, right now......I mean, My God. We live in a post-#MeToo world, and Thank God for
          that.

          But Pop and its variants and relatives are alive and well and very inventive. Take a browse through the NME Top 50 I linked to above, or the Guardian's own Top 50 albums published a few days back. Fire up your streamer and have a go..

          I don't think you'll find much ogling of 17-year olds in there, of whatever sex or fluidity of gender....(even the Sex & The City reboot, "And Just Like That" currently on Sky, has caught up with this now - Charlotte's daughter Rose has announced she is to be known as "Rock", and referred to as "they"....excellent.....)....

          All a bit heavy-handed, perhaps no longer the classic of pop culture the original was, but at least they are trying...the Telegraph described AJLT as "tediously woke" which should be all the recommendation you need....
          Last edited by jayne lee wilson; 31-12-21, 13:59.

          Comment

          • Ein Heldenleben
            Full Member
            • Apr 2014
            • 6761

            Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post
            Yeah....not a lyric you'd get far with, or get away with, right now......I mean, My God. We live in a post-#MeToo world, and Thank God for
            that.

            But Pop and its variants and relatives are alive and well and very inventive. Take a browse through the NME Top 50 I linked to above, or the Guardian's own Top 50 albums published a few days back. Fire up your streamer and have a go..

            I don't think you'll find much ogling of 17-year olds in there, of whatever sex or fluidity of gender....(even the Sex & The City reboot, "And Just Like That" currently on Sky, has caught up with this now - Charlotte's daughter Rose has announced she is to be known as "Rock", and referred to as "they"....excellent.....)....

            All a bit heavy-handed but at least they are trying...the Telegraph described it as "tediously woke" which should be all the recommendation you need....
            I’ve read the Mellers quote in the context of his Beatles book Twilight of The Gods and I don’t think he was implying anything sordid or sexual in his comment. The mean / seventeen is just a rhyming convenience isn’t it? He then goes on to remark on how the lyrics use the phrase “beyond compare” . A very unidiomatic literary styling for a pop lyric : obviously to generate the rhyme with I saw her standing there. I had a friend who went onto have quite a successful pop career who when he read sections of the book couldn’t stop laughing at what he thought was the pretentiousness of it all. I think it’s a pretty good book…

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            • jayne lee wilson
              Banned
              • Jul 2011
              • 10711

              Originally posted by Ein Heldenleben View Post
              I’ve read the Mellers quote in the context of his Beatles book Twilight of The Gods and I don’t think he was implying anything sordid or sexual in his comment. The mean / seventeen is just a rhyming convenience isn’t it? He then goes on to remark on how the lyrics use the phrase “beyond compare” . A very unidiomatic literary styling for a pop lyric : obviously to generate the rhyme with I saw her standing there. I had a friend who went onto have quite a successful pop career who when he read sections of the book couldn’t stop laughing at what he thought was the pretentiousness of it all. I think it’s a pretty good book…
              A "rhyming convenience"? Oh of course it is darling....
              So you never heard of subtexts then...

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              • french frank
                Administrator/Moderator
                • Feb 2007
                • 30256

                Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post
                Yeah....not a lyric you'd get far with, or get away with, right now......I mean, My God. We live in a post-#MeToo world, and Thank God for
                that.
                I can see where you're coming from and don't dissent. My thought went back to the relief I felt when John Mullan said he thought Christopher Rick's book on Bob Dylan was 'his one duff volume'. Even middle-aged professors can become besotted with popular culture

                Mellers on the Beatles, Ricks on Dylan. There is an ingredient which is distinct from the detached objectivity of the critic [© french frank ]
                It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                Comment

                • cloughie
                  Full Member
                  • Dec 2011
                  • 22116

                  Originally posted by Ein Heldenleben View Post
                  He’s right . The ubiquity of music , the lack of a old style Friday release , the meaningless of the charts make the idea of pop redundant. The fact the oldsters are still churning it out is both admirable and ridiculous. There was a Cliff concert on telly last week. At 80 years old still singing about his Living Doll. Amazing he can still hit the notes (just) but isn’t pop really for youngsters?
                  But then you admitted to listening to Please Please Me a day or two ago - today’s pop is for youngsters - it’s dreadful - 60s pop can still be for we ‘diamond teenagers’ if we like it and want to listen to it - Kinks, Animals, Shadows, Beatles, Searchers, Hollies, Stones …I can still choose to listen and equally enjoy Kletzki’s Manfred and the Five Faces of Manfred Mann as I did in 1965!

                  Comment

                  • Serial_Apologist
                    Full Member
                    • Dec 2010
                    • 37636

                    Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post
                    but at least they are trying...
                    Very!

                    Comment

                    • RichardB
                      Banned
                      • Nov 2021
                      • 2170

                      Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post
                      But Pop and its variants and relatives are alive and well and very inventive. Take a browse through the NME Top 50 I linked to above, or the Guardian's own Top 50 albums published a few days back.
                      I did take a good look at the Guardian list, and found that I knew very few of the artists on it even by name. So I set myself the task of acquainting myself with as many of the items as possible and there were a few pleasant surprises along the way. Of course they're not going to have the effect on me that pop music of the first 20 years of my life did, since they're not going to become associated with particular times, feelings, experiences and the rest of it. But I'm sure that it will have that effect on young people going through those things now.

                      What I found disappointing was that much of the music was a more or less perceptible mixture of preexisting ingredients, which wasn't so true of 1960s pop music because there were hardly any suitable ingredients to be plundered. But each generation gets its own pop music, and the present music means as much to those who follow it as ours did to us. It's easy to look down one's nose at some supposed decline in quality or originality over the last few decades, but actually none of us is in such an objective position as to make such categorical judgements. And, as you say, the absolute dominance of male-centred viewpoints (even with female artists) in the lyrics of 1960s songs has given way to something different and indeed more diverse, in terms of the range of what's being expressed in the lyrics.

                      Comment

                      • Serial_Apologist
                        Full Member
                        • Dec 2010
                        • 37636

                        Originally posted by cloughie View Post
                        But then you admitted to listening to Please Please Me a day or two ago - today’s pop is for youngsters - it’s dreadful - 60s pop can still be for we ‘diamond teenagers’ if we like it and want to listen to it - Kinks, Animals, Shadows, Beatles, Searchers, Hollies, Stones …I can still choose to listen and equally enjoy Kletzki’s Manfred and the Five Faces of Manfred Mann as I did in 1965!
                        I'm still glad unlike others here that I stuck steadfastly with jazz alongside interesting myself in the newest modernist and pre-postmodernist classical music in the sixties. Very little of the changes was for purposes of broadening the scope and idiom even back then until in truth the little of it that was androgenous and psychedelic started opting out of the pop field into Progrock - even then we could see change as a synonym for fashion, which was what the commercialisation of the 60s was really all about when the commentariat talk about how free it all was.

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                        • Ein Heldenleben
                          Full Member
                          • Apr 2014
                          • 6761

                          Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post
                          A "rhyming convenience"? Oh of course it is darling....
                          So you never heard of subtexts then...
                          Yes indeed - spent three years studying poetry! - I just don’t think there’s one there in this instance or more accurately I don’t think Mellers thinks there is one there but as he’s dead there’s no real way of proving it one way or the other. Any way MacCartney was 22 when he wrote it , Lennon a bit younger - I don’t see anything me-tooish about the lyric . It’s all about how she’s dancing with some one else. Compared to some rap lyrics it’s practically a hymn !

                          Comment

                          • Ein Heldenleben
                            Full Member
                            • Apr 2014
                            • 6761

                            Originally posted by cloughie View Post
                            But then you admitted to listening to Please Please Me a day or two ago - today’s pop is for youngsters - it’s dreadful - 60s pop can still be for we ‘diamond teenagers’ if we like it and want to listen to it - Kinks, Animals, Shadows, Beatles, Searchers, Hollies, Stones …I can still choose to listen and equally enjoy Kletzki’s Manfred and the Five Faces of Manfred Mann as I did in 1965!
                            Yes I’ll listen to the sixties album but would probably give Macca reprising it a miss . He can’t really hit much above a D these days …

                            Comment

                            • french frank
                              Administrator/Moderator
                              • Feb 2007
                              • 30256

                              Originally posted by Ein Heldenleben View Post
                              Yes I’ll listen to the sixties album but would probably give Macca reprising it a miss . He can’t really hit much above a D these days …
                              It all goes to show that the range of music people enjoy is very much rooted in their individual lives. I don't consider that people who listen to the pop music of my or subsequent generations is any more than just that. Nor do I consider people whose range of musical tastes rove far more widely than mine are in some way 'better' than me with my very narrow tastes. We're just flattering ourselves if we think our tastes are in any way superior, or that other people are impoverishing their cultural lives by not sharing our own tastes. In a world where there is such a mass of music, we all follow our tastes and interests - don't judge us by them.
                              It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                              Comment

                              • Ein Heldenleben
                                Full Member
                                • Apr 2014
                                • 6761

                                Originally posted by french frank View Post
                                It all goes to show that the range of music people enjoy is very much rooted in their individual lives. I don't consider that people who listen to the pop music of my or subsequent generations is any more than just that. Nor do I consider people whose range of musical tastes rove far more widely than mine are in some way 'better' than me with my very narrow tastes. We're just flattering ourselves if we think our tastes are in any way superior, or that other people are impoverishing their cultural lives by not sharing our own tastes. In a world where there is such a mass of music, we all follow our tastes and interests - don't judge us by them.
                                What - even Andrew Lloyd Webber ? I had a good friend who was obsessed with Phantom - we agreed not to go there …

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