Categorisation of Music

[french frank]

I’m surprised no one has said that there are essentially two categories of human beings . Those that divide things into categories and those that don’t …

I think most people who are able to divide some things into categories, but not others.

[cloughie]

Yes I love the way the improv drifts into Messiaen style birdsong at the end…..definitely hors de categorie…

You cannot pigeonhole him into any genre - classically trained and went on a jazz route! Some great results.

[NatBalance]

Which, in turn, came from . . .

That's not right is it? Church music was started by monks and the like chanting and singing psalms I thought and there was no similarity at all to folk music.

[Serial_Apologist]

I’m surprised no one has said that there are essentially two categories of human beings . Those that divide things into categories and those that don’t …

That is a very categorical thing to say!

[Ein Heldenleben]

That's not right is it? Church music was started by monks and the like chanting and singing psalms I thought and there was no similarity at all to folk music.

As Richard implies the earliest Gallican and Roman chants would have been as near “folk music “ as makes no difference . Isn’t it thought they were the spontaneous chants of early Christian congregations later formalised ? Or do we just not know ? . It is known that 17th Puritans spontaneously improvised collective chants as that was in line with their theology . These were , by all accounts , rather cacophonous. I wonder whether in the early 5th (?) century some one thought it was time to get a grip…There’s almost a parallel between what happened musically and theologically…
as you can tell I am very far from being an expert on early church music !

[Serial_Apologist]

That's not right is it? Church music was started by monks and the like chanting and singing psalms I thought and there was no similarity at all to folk music.

Both are modal (in a wider sense than diatonic if one includes all folk musics and forms of chanting), the main difference I suppose being in the more rhythmically defined character informing folk music. It's always intrigued me how the Judaeo-Christian lineage's suspicion of anything "suggestive" turned drone-based chanting traditions with gong and other percussive "beats" as means of resonance-induced higher states of consciousness into restrictive rhythmic until the re-admission of time signatures surviving from what were once considered "primitive" musical cultures in so-called "polite" circles. Some say it was the metrical and rhythmic irregularities that scandalised that first-night audience for "Le Sacre" rather than its piling up of unresolving dissonances.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Both are modal (in a wider sense than diatonic if one includes all folk musics and forms of chanting), the main difference I suppose being in the more rhythmically defined character informing folk music. It's always intrigued me how the Judaeo-Christian lineage's suspicion of anything "suggestive" turned what in common between most drone-based chanting traditions had been means of resonance-induced higher states of consciousness, into restrictive rhythmic impulsion until the re-admission of time signatures surviving from what were once considered "primitive" musical cultures in so-called "polite" circles. Some say it was the metrical and rhythmic irregularities that scandalised that first-night audience for "Le Sacre" rather than its piling up of unresolving dissonances.

I thought it was the choreography that really outraged the audience?

[Serial_Apologist]

I thought it was the choreography that really outraged the audience?

Possibly right!

[cloughie]

I’m surprised no one has said that there are essentially two categories of human beings . Those that divide things into categories and those that don’t …

Yes but that would not take into account the crossover element of those who sometimes do and sometimes don’t - would you need a genre/ sub-genre eg those who only do so at weekends or those who only have time at bank holidays. That reminds me I was only thinking the other day - when all the banks close will they abolish bank holidays or just change the stupid name - I may be wrong but banks usually do open on Good Friday which is on the calendar as a BH!

[Ein Heldenleben]

Possibly right!

When you see the original choreography you can see why. Compared to Swan Lake it’s very “out there” . Ballet audiences always strike me as musically very eclectic (unlike opera) . I once sat through an entire Ballet Rambert Lutoslawski evening with a rapt audience largely of teenage girls , their mothers , and a few middle aged couples - most of whom had never heard him before and probably never would again.

[RichardB]

This is where categories fall apart. Although Gregorian chant might have been a key point in the “development” of western music I don’t regard it as “classical” music. It was certainly amongst the earliest notated music though (I think )

In fact there are a few surviving notated compositions from ancient Greece, which have been performed and recorded, but the oldest musical notation actually dates from 1400 BCE in Nippur (Mesopotamia), comprising a system for tuning a lyre and numbering its strings, although how this notation is to be realised in sound isn't clear.

[RichardB]

Church music was started by monks and the like chanting and singing psalms

What is your scenario here? Some "monks and the like" just got together one day and said "let's invent a whole repertoire of music for our liturgy - how about singing in unison with more or less equal rhythmical values, would that sound ok?" Of course what they actually did was to continue a tradition which already existed.

[Bryn]

That's not right is it? Church music was started by monks and the like chanting and singing psalms I thought and there was no similarity at all to folk music.

That, since I specified no particular link, is something of a non-sequitur. My point was that church music was in no way the origin of music, classical European or otherwise.

[oddoneout]

Can't help thinking that the last few pages of posts could do with being hived off? There is a lot of discussion and food for thought, not related to the thread title, which is perhaps being limited by being in a location not visited by some who might have opinion to offer?
Meanwhile, following up the comment about 1000 posts I went back to the beginning, and was heartened to note that this

It will be interesting to see whether the pieces become shorter, the newspaper extracts more frequent, the quizzes more numerous, the Frank Sinatra plays more regular &c

is not the case now. For whatever reason (and I'm pretty certain it had little if anything to do with listeners' views) the slide was halted. The Carol Competition was an uncomfortable reminder of some of the rubbish - repetition, awkward telephone exchanges etc, which now don't, thank heavens, feature.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Can't help thinking that the last few pages of posts could do with being hived off? There is a lot of discussion and food for thought, not related to the thread title, which is perhaps being limited by being in a location not visited by some who might have opinion to offer?

I agree. Could someone suggest a title for the new thread?