Categorisation of Music

[Ein Heldenleben]

I suspect Homo sapiens has been categorising things ever since we arranged bones / stones in every increasing size of deadliness . I also suspect we are not the only species to categorise. Putting my library in alphabetical order wouldn’t work though , nor would ordering by category work. The key thing at this “life stage “ is that nobody puts them back in the wrong place under ANY circumstances whatsoever.

[cloughie]

But there doesn't need to be! (I always attribute that quotation to Ellington rather than Armstrong but maybe they both said it...)

Cloughie, sorry I misunderstood you. I certainly agree that "genres" as we know them were invented for the convenience of people making money out of musicians' work, rather than for those musicians or their listeners.

Fine - I always thought it was Previn not Armstrong or Elligton - maybe I got it bad - not good!

[RichardB]

ever since we arranged bones / stones in every increasing size of deadliness

Did we? I'm not aware of any evidence of that.

All I'm saying is that putting music into tidy categories, or trying to, seems to me a somewhat limiting way to look at things. Even if some people find it convenient. Is music about convenience?

[french frank]

Even if some people find it convenient. Is music about convenience?

Finding a form of classification 'convenient' isn't the same as finding music convenient, is it? And isn't arranging your CDs in alphabetical order in some sense for your convenience?

[Bryn]

Did we? I'm not aware of any evidence of that.

All I'm saying is that putting music into tidy categories, or trying to, seems to me a somewhat limiting way to look at things. Even if some people find it convenient. Is music about convenience?

Well, there's Dave Smith's "Music for Public Convenience", which I heard and recorded in concert, some decades ago. Other works featured were by John White, Gavin Bryars and the then 14 years old Amanda Hurton, a student of John's.

[RichardB]

Finding a form of classification 'convenient' isn't the same as finding music convenient, is it? And isn't arranging your CDs in alphabetical order in some sense for your convenience?

This is getting a bit silly. I think you must know what I'm trying to say.

[NatBalance]

Of course, all music actually originated from what could be called folk music.

Can't see that. I think classical music mainly originated from church music. I believe in the west the first classical music was Gregorian chant.

What might be more desirable, in terms of opening minds and imaginations, is not to define musical "genres" in the first place. Can anyone think of a reason why they're needed?

Well it makes conversation a lot less long winded. Just imagine how complicated discussions would be if that policy was carried through to everything. Imagine if the animal kingdom was not categorised into all its miriad branches and types and whatnot. It helps in analysing and understanding, otherwise you can't see the wood for the trees. I don't see anything wrong with putting things in boxes, it's what you then do with those boxes that can sometimes cause problems, and as I've pointed out before there will always be exceptions and also blending of different boxes.

[Bryn]

Can't see that. I think classical music mainly originated from church music. . . . .

Which, in turn, came from . . .

I find no evidence that music originated in the Christian, or any other, church. See Stephen Mithen's The Singing Neanderthals: The Origins of Music, Language, Mind, and Body, for instance.

[RichardB]

Can't see that. I think classical music mainly originated from church music. I believe in the west the first classical music was Gregorian chant.

I wasn't talking about "classical" music but about music more generally, which as Bryn points out has almost certainly been around longer than our species. Also, Gregorian chant itself developed out of Byzantine chant which developed out of pre-christian music in the Greek modal system, which existed at least by the time of Pythagoras in the 6th century BCE and no doubt derived from folk music...

Imagine if the animal kingdom was not categorised into all its miriad branches and types and whatnot.

Music is not a science. I think it's too often thought of as being divided into boxes according to genre, and that it's worth exploring the idea of not thinking of it like that.

[antongould]

Of course anton should be congratulated - the voice of reason - the rest of us are mere hangers on!

Hardly the voice of reason …… but still enjoying the discussions hereabouts …..

[Ein Heldenleben]

Can't see that. I think classical music mainly originated from church music. I believe in the west the first classical music was Gregorian chant.



Well it makes conversation a lot less long winded. Just imagine how complicated discussions would be if that policy was carried through to everything. Imagine if the animal kingdom was not categorised into all its miriad branches and types and whatnot. It helps in analysing and understanding, otherwise you can't see the wood for the trees. I don't see anything wrong with putting things in boxes, it's what you then do with those boxes that can sometimes cause problems, and as I've pointed out before there will always be exceptions and also blending of different boxes.

This is where categories fall apart. Although Gregorian chant might have been a key point in the “development” of western music I don’t regard it as “classical” music. It was certainly amongst the earliest notated music though (I think ) .

Bang on queue they are just playing Peace Piece by Bill Evans on R3. It’s a fairly simple improvisation around two chords with an unvarying bass pedal.It borrows from Satie’s Gymnopedie and Bill’s own improvisation on Some Other Time : a Broadway tune written by Leonard Bernstein for On The Town . Is it Classical ? Is it jazz ? It isn’t really either …

[cloughie]

This is where categories fall apart. Although Gregorian chant might have been a key point in the “development” of western music I don’t regard it as “classical” music. It was certainly amongst the earliest notated music though (I think ) .

Bang on queue they are just playing Peace Piece by Bill Evans on R3. It’s a fairly simple improvisation around two chords with an unvarying bass pedal.It borrows from Satie’s Gymnopedie and Bill’s own improvisation on Some Other Time : a Broadway tune written by Leonard Bernstein for On The Town . Is it Classical ? Is it jazz ? It isn’t really either …

Whatever you call it - really very good!

[Ein Heldenleben]

Whatever you call it - really very good!

Yes I love the way the improv drifts into Messiaen style birdsong at the end…..definitely hors de categorie…

[french frank]

This is getting a bit silly. I think you must know what I'm trying to say.

I think so, as in "I think it's too often thought of as being divided into boxes according to genre, and that it's worth exploring the idea of not thinking of it like that."

I was simply trying to put a different view, but it does depend on what the individual finds rewarding.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I think so, as in "I think it's too often thought of as being divided into boxes according to genre, and that it's worth exploring the idea of not thinking of it like that."

I was simply trying to put a different view, but it does depend on what the individual finds rewarding.

I’m surprised no one has said that there are essentially two categories of human beings . Those that divide things into categories and those that don’t …