Categorisation of Music

[french frank]

I was absolutely astonished to hear complaints about Mario Lanza being played on this show. This is very sad. Why the complaints about one of the best tenors ever? We should hear more of him I say. There seems to be a faction of classical music lovers who do not like anything that is popular, but yet I never see any complaints about jazz on R3. What are the reasons for these complaints?

'Classical music' isn't defined by the performer. As Ein Heldenleben pointed out, Lanza's discography reveals that he seldom even recorded the odd aria, wrenched from its opera. Doing a bit of research, Harpo Marx's 'Guardian Angels' (Lanza's version is on Youtube) fits in with his popular, religio-sentimental repertoire: it is not 'classical music'.

They'd have done better (in my view, and since it's Christmas playing the Harpo Marx version:

[Frances_iom]

... yet I never see any complaints about jazz on R3. ..

Allow me to add one - from its timing eg Fri evenings obviously aimed at what was until recently the R2 audience, it is now I think too much on R3 but I've grown to accept that my listening hours will be steadily reduced with each passing year as R3 morphs into R2 as was.

[NatBalance]

Is Jazz popular?*


*I ask this as a jazz appreciator

I like jazz aswell and I don't at all mind it being on R3 but it is not classical music, it is pop. Aretha Franklin is often played on R3 and I reckon she is popular but I've never heard any complaints. The definitions can get confusing because within the pop genre you have a category called pop, just like in the classical genre you have a category called classical.

[Joseph K]

I like jazz aswell and I don't at all mind it being on R3 but it is not classical music, it is pop. Aretha Franklin is often played on R3 and I reckon she is popular but I've never heard any complaints. The definitions can get confusing because within the pop genre you have a category called pop, just like in the classical genre you have a category called classical.

Jazz hasn't been 'pop' since the 1920s/30s.

[french frank]

Jazz hasn't been 'pop' since the 1920s/30s.

In any case, jazz has been part of R3's output since before most people here were born, and the classical buffs have given up saying, Can't we just have jazz on the jazz programmes and classical on the classical programmes? We can have just jazz (of various sorts) on the jazz programmes, but much of the erstwhile classical programming is a mix of classical, jazz, folk, world, music theatre, crossover, uncategorisable 'pop' etc etc.

[NatBalance]

Jazz hasn't been 'pop' since the 1920s/30s.

Well, it sounds like pop music to me. I'm not saying it's of the pop music type within the overall pop music genre like Michael Jackson and Madonna (as I explained above the confusion in the language) but it has all the attributes of the overall pop music genre, such as .... now hear comes the scary bit, trying to define the difference between classical and pop. Right let's take a deep breath and have a go .... pop music generally has a foot tapping rhythm and beat prominent, it's not usually written down in detail by the composers, just the chords (it may be written down in detail by others), if any meaning is being related then it is usually reliant solely on the words rather than the music, and, dare I suggest it, is usually created by people not professionally trained in music. There are always going to be exceptions of course and then we have the cross-overs such as 70s prog rock.

The pop music genre originates from ordinary folk i.e. folk music
The classical music genre originates I think from church music

[rauschwerk]

The pop music genre originates from ordinary folk i.e. folk music

That, I'm afraid, is an oversimplification. Read Pieter van der Merwe's Origins of the Popular Style (OUP 1989) and you will see what I mean.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Well, it sounds like pop music to me. I'm not saying it's of the pop music type within the overall pop music genre like Michael Jackson and Madonna (as I explained above the confusion in the language) but it has all the attributes of the overall pop music genre, such as .... now hear comes the scary bit, trying to define the difference between classical and pop. Right let's take a deep breath and have a go .... pop music generally has a foot tapping rhythm and beat prominent, it's not usually written down in detail by the composers, just the chords (it may be written down in detail by others), if any meaning is being related then it is usually reliant solely on the words rather than the music, and, dare I suggest it, is usually created by people not professionally trained in music. There are always going to be exceptions of course and then we have the cross-overs such as 70s prog rock.

The pop music genre originates from ordinary folk i.e. folk music
The classical music genre originates I think from church music

It’s much more complicated than that . There’s a big African-American Spiritual element in jazz. Even the basic chord structure of the Blues I , IV, V is thought , by some , to be an adoption of hymns sung by freed slaves in the Mississippi Delta. (I’m massively oversimplifying ) .
There is no easy distinction between church music and folk music or between the church and ordinary people

[Joseph K]

Well, it sounds like pop music to me.

Does 'it'?

[cloughie]

Does 'it'?

Music comes in three types - The good, the bad and the ugly! The listener decides!

[NatBalance]

Does 'it'?

Excellent, but yep, that sounds like the type of pop music called heavy metal to me, except that would normally be an electric guitar.

There seems to be a feeling that to call something pop music is to insult it. I don't see that at all. I do not see pop music as inferior to classical. I think Jeff Lynne created just as good music as Beethoven. There are of course good and bad music in all forms of music. There are some classical pieces far superior to some pop pieces, but likewise there are also some pop pieces far superior to some classical pieces.

[NatBalance]

That, I'm afraid, is an oversimplification. Read Pieter van der Merwe's Origins of the Popular Style (OUP 1989) and you will see what I mean.

Oh yes, it's bound to be an oversimplification. Thanks for recommended read, I will make a note.

[NatBalance]

It’s much more complicated than that . There’s a big African-American Spiritual element in jazz. Even the basic chord structure of the Blues I , IV, V is thought , by some , to be an adoption of hymns sung by freed slaves in the Mississippi Delta. (I’m massively oversimplifying ) .
There is no easy distinction between church music and folk music or between the church and ordinary people

Oh I'm sure it is more complicated but there is no getting away from the fact that popular jazz as sometimes played on R3 sounds like pop music rather than classical .... but ... there are some types of jazz that go classical in nature. I've heard some jazz that is very avande garde and goes for creating effect type music rather than melody music with a prominent beat.

[cloughie]

Excellent, but yep, that sounds like the type of pop music called heavy metal to me, except that would normally be an electric guitar.

There seems to be a feeling that to call something pop music is to insult it. I don't see that at all. I do not see pop music as inferior to classical. I think Jeff Lynne created just as good music as Beethoven. There are of course good and bad music in all forms of music. There are some classical pieces far superior to some pop pieces, but likewise there are also some pop pieces far superior to some classical pieces.

After he nicked it! The Beatles were an even bigger influence on him!

[Joseph K]

Excellent, but yep, that sounds like the type of pop music called heavy metal to me, except that would normally be an electric guitar.

Please post some heavy metal that is even remotely similar to the Coltrane...