Categorisation of Music

[Ein Heldenleben]

Oh I'm sure it is more complicated but there is no getting away from the fact that popular jazz as sometimes played on R3 sounds like pop music rather than classical .... but ... there are some types of jazz that go classical in nature. I've heard some jazz that is very avande garde and goes for creating effect type music rather than melody music with a prominent beat.

jazz relies very heavily on harmonic sequences first used in “classical” music - essentially cycles of fifths . But in Jazz the dominant tonic cadence is constantly substituted by the supertonic . So a simple classical sequence might have several chord substitutions replacing it . But those substitutions are pretty much underpinned by the rules of classical harmony. There are plenty of cycle of fifth sequences in Beethoven e.g. in the Op 10 D major piano sonata final movement . There’s a sequence near the end with minor sevenths that harmonically could be out of a forties Bebop track or a Beatles tune . One composer who straddles both the pop and jazz worlds is Michel LeGrand . Many of his songs are more or less cycles of fifths from beginning to end e.g. You Must Believe In Spring.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Please post some heavy metal that is even remotely similar to the Coltrane...

Both A love Supreme (the motto theme) and Whole Lotta Love are based on the same three note repetitive modal/ pentatonic fragments - on G, Bflat and C . Both are used almost as ostinatos. I think WLL is a veiled tribute to Coltrane
But that’s about the only similarity that spring to mind.

[Joseph K]

Both A love Supreme (the motto theme) and Whole Lotta Love are based on the same three note repetitive modal/ pentatonic fragments - on G, Bflat and C . Both are used almost as ostinatos. I think WLL is a veiled tribute to Coltrane
But that’s about the only similarity that spring to mind.

I was talking about the Coltrane that I posted. In any case, I'd consider use of a pentatonic scale, considering how common use of this scale is over the world throughout history, to be a facile sort of similarity, a bit like saying how two pieces contain question/answer phrases - it doesn't mean all that much.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I was talking about the Coltrane that I posted. In any case, I'd consider use of a pentatonic scale, considering how common use of this scale is over the world throughout history, to be a facile sort of similarity, a bit like saying how two pieces contain question/answer phrases - it doesn't mean all that much.

Yes but they are exactly the same notes used in almost the same way. Both “tunes “ lean heavily on the Blues. I almost wonder whether Zep borrowed it.

[NatBalance]

Please post some heavy metal that is even remotely similar to the Coltrane...

Well, how about this?:- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsqFbE7w_Ok .... bearing in mind it's not going to be exactly the same because it's heavy metal, but it's the same in that it's a variation on a type of music that over all comes under the heading pop i.e. not classical.

[NatBalance]

jazz relies very heavily on harmonic sequences first used in “classical” music - essentially cycles of fifths . But in Jazz the dominant tonic cadence is constantly substituted by the supertonic . So a simple classical sequence might have several chord substitutions replacing it . But those substitutions are pretty much underpinned by the rules of classical harmony. There are plenty of cycle of fifth sequences in Beethoven e.g. in the Op 10 D major piano sonata final movement . There’s a sequence near the end with minor sevenths that harmonically could be out of a forties Bebop track or a Beatles tune . One composer who straddles both the pop and jazz worlds is Michel LeGrand . Many of his songs are more or less cycles of fifths from beginning to end e.g. You Must Believe In Spring.

Ah well, you've got me when you talk theory. I can only go by the sound. I listened to the Michel LeGrand Orchestra playing that piece and I think I could hear the fifths in the flutes? Lovely rendition, but going back to my original question, why is there so much distaste for Mario Lanza and yet no complaints at jazz singers? Has it got something to do with that theory stuff you explained? I love Lanza's voice, plus his diction, and I also love the occasional Hollywood treatment, which is also sometimes heard on R3 but I don't recall complaints. Do R3 listeners also dislike the John Wilson Orchestra concerts at the Proms?

[Old Grumpy]

Ah well, you've got me when you talk theory. I can only go by the sound. I listened to the Michel LeGrand Orchestra playing that piece and I think I could hear the fifths in the flutes? Lovely rendition, but going back to my original question, why is there so much distaste for Mario Lanza and yet no complaints at jazz singers? Has it got something to do with that theory stuff you explained? I love Lanza's voice, plus his diction, and I also love the occasional Hollywood treatment, which is also sometimes heard on R3 but I don't recall complaints. Do R3 listeners also dislike the John Wilson Orchestra concerts at the Proms?

I'm sure Radio 3 listeners will like John Wilson Orchestra concerts, whether Forumistas do is, I would suggest, an entirely different matter!

[oddoneout]

I'm sure Radio 3 listeners will like John Wilson Orchestra concerts, whether Forumistas do is, I would suggest, an entirely different matter!

I realise we are a diminishing breed but some forumites do still listen to R3... Although I also realise this could well be a wind-up.
The to and fro about Mario Lanza amuses me as I heard the same views from a very early age among my family and my mother's friends.
This will doubtless seem like a silly question to some, but is there a point in musical history (in this country for the sake of simplicity) where the line between "popular" and "serious" music became strongly drawn and those engaged in one lost credibility by moving across that line to the other, or has it always existed?

[cloughie]

I realise we are a diminishing breed but some forumites do still listen to R3... Although I also realise this could well be a wind-up.
The to and fro about Mario Lanza amuses me as I heard the same views from a very early age among my family and my mother's friends.
This will doubtless seem like a silly question to some, but is there a point in musical history (in this country for the sake of simplicity) where the line between "popular" and "serious" music became strongly drawn and those engaged in one lost credibility by moving across that line to the other, or has it always existed?

Just watching ‘Singing in the rain’. Wonderful - acting, singing, dancing and a soundtrack - John Wilson can conduct at the Proms anytime he wants. John Wilson’s recreations of the lost Hollywood scores are remarkable - he’s not quite the Andre Previn of the 21st Century yet - but…
He is also a serious orchestral classical despite the fact that some on the forum seem reluctant to acknowledge it!
I think the main thing that makes the ‘crossover’ proms less than they could be is the vocal quality of some of the singers.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I realise we are a diminishing breed but some forumites do still listen to R3... Although I also realise this could well be a wind-up.
The to and fro about Mario Lanza amuses me as I heard the same views from a very early age among my family and my mother's friends.
This will doubtless seem like a silly question to some, but is there a point in musical history (in this country for the sake of simplicity) where the line between "popular" and "serious" music became strongly drawn and those engaged in one lost credibility by moving across that line to the other, or has it always existed?

I don’t think there is a strong line between “serious” and “popular” music - or not as much as you might think - certainly not as far as musicians are concerned . All the players (with the possible exception of some of the reeds and rhythm section ) in the John Wilson orchestra are also classical orchestral players . In a couple of concerts I went to the lead double bass was also the current Concertgebouw leader.
Just amongst singers Renée Fleming and Jonas Kaufman started as night club singers before presumably some one spotted their voices were big enough not to need a mic. Finally Simon Keenlyside , an outstanding Macbeth recently , released a Broadway album which showed he can sing Cole Porter rather better then some of the singers on the Anything Goes performance on BBC Two last night.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Just watching ‘Singing in the rain’. Wonderful - acting, singing, dancing and a soundtrack - John Wilson can conduct at the Proms anytime he wants. John Wilson’s recreations of the lost Hollywood scores are remarkable - he’s not quite the Andre Previn of the 21st Century yet - but…
He is also a serious orchestral classical despite the fact that some on the forum seem reluctant to acknowledge it!
I think the main thing that makes the ‘crossover’ proms less than they could be is the vocal quality of some of the singers.

Oh that is absolutely so true - send for Keenlyside….

[french frank]

I don’t think there is a strong line between “serious” and “popular” music - or not as much as you might think - certainly not as far as musicians are concerned . .

The original answer I gave to Natbalance (which he presumably didn't read, as he later asked the question again) was that 'classical music' was not - to any degree - 'defined' by the performers/musicians. Dowland doesn't become 'popular' if performed by Sting and Rodgers and Hammerstein don't become 'classical music' if sung by Bryn Terfel. Nor is 'classical' v 'popular' anything to do with 'good' and 'bad'. And I would suggest that any distinction between the two can't be reduced to 'serious' and 'popular' either.

However, any argument which seeks a rigid distinction and then apply it to: "So should this be on R3 or not?" is doomed to fail these days as the editorial strategy adopted dictates that 'popular' music (of a certain type) now has its dedicated slots, which means 'expect to find it turning up on any R3 classical programme too'.

[Ein Heldenleben]

The original answer I gave to Natbalance (which he presumably didn't read, as he later asked the question again) was that 'classical music' was not - to any degree - 'defined' by the performers/musicians. Dowland doesn't become 'popular' if performed by Sting and Rodgers and Hammerstein don't become 'classical music' if sung by Bryn Terfel. Nor is 'classical' v 'popular' anything to do with 'good' and 'bad'. And I would suggest that any distinction between the two can't be reduced to 'serious' and 'popular' either.

However, any argument which seeks a rigid distinction and then apply it to: "So should this be on R3 or not?" is doomed to fail these days as the editorial strategy adopted dictates that 'popular' music (of a certain type) now has its dedicated slots, which means 'expect to find it turning up on any R3 classical programme too'.

It’s a bit of an artificial distinction isn’t it ? How do we know that Dowland wasn’t essentially a Tudor “pop” composer? The McCartney of his day .
Co-incidentally just heard the tenor Alan Clayton singing Paul McCartney’s Blackbird on Radio 3 - rather well but very “classically” - on the beat , clear enunciation, no note slurring. Not an authentic pop rendition- not that it matters.
I think Bryn sings R and H better than Sting sings Dowland.. but I’d rather he stuck to Schubert.

[cloughie]

I don’t think there is a strong line between “serious” and “popular” music - or not as much as you might think - certainly not as far as musicians are concerned . All the players (with the possible exception of some of the reeds and rhythm section ) in the John Wilson orchestra are also classical orchestral players . In a couple of concerts I went to the lead double bass was also the current Concertgebouw leader.
Just amongst singers Renée Fleming and Jonas Kaufman started as night club singers before presumably some one spotted their voices were big enough not to need a mic. Finally Simon Keenlyside , an outstanding Macbeth recently , released a Broadway album which showed he can sing Cole Porter rather better then some of the singers on the Anything Goes performance on BBC Two last night.

The ability to ‘crossover’ is an interesting topic - the best in both worlds can do it but many find it difficult. Bryn Terfel, Lesley Garrett and a few others can tackle successfully anything that is thrown at them, other classical singers make a good attempt but can’t quite shake off the classical straitjacket. Duets often reveal the quality gap - the classical singer who can’t sing, the pop singer whose voice is found wanting. Maybe the right combination of a well trained voice and will to be versatile is the key - Barbra Streisand, Linda Ronstadt and Judy Collins come to mind. I can’t say I warm to the Katherine Jenkins, Russell Watson, Aled Jones crossover style. (I prefer the other Welsh Jones - Tom - but that’s another story and not crossover - though had he done an Alfie Boe 65 years ago with voice training he could have been an opera singer)

[Ein Heldenleben]

The ability to ‘crossover’ is an interesting topic - the best in both worlds can do it but many find it difficult. Bryn Terfel, Lesley Garrett and a few others can tackle successfully anything that is thrown at them, other classical singers make a good attempt but can’t quite shake off the classical straitjacket. Duets often reveal the quality gap - the classical singer who can’t sing, the pop singer whose voice is found wanting. Maybe the right combination of a well trained voice and will to be versatile is the key - Barbra Streisand, Linda Ronstadt and Judy Collins come to mind. I can’t say I warm to the Katherine Jenkins, Russell Watson, Aled Jones crossover style. (I prefer the other Welsh Jones - Tom - but that’s another story and not crossover - though had he done an Alfie Boe 65 years ago with voice training he could have been an opera singer)

Marilyn Horne could do everything from Rossini to Rodgers and crucially “ inhabit “ the idiom . That is not sound like an opera singer singing musicals. Bryn is not bad either - did an excellent Sweeney Todd at ENO a few years back.