Sir Roger Norrington to retire

[Ein Heldenleben]

You know, since I started contributing to this thread, I’ve had to maintain my equanimity and be patient, gently batting off ad hominem attacks, all questioning my judgement, reasoning and personal preferences.

Apparently I’m judged by someone who’s never met me to be someone who prefers “their music from 1803 to sound like it’s coming from 1950 instead of from 2021.”

Or, by someone who again has never met me that Norrington’s view “is still quite new enough to leave some listeners reeling, even in 2021”, when I have been screaming for exactly the opposite!

I’ve not heard either Vanska or Dausgaard, so cannot comment on their interpretation. I’m not pleading for indulgence, merely a lack of facility enjoyed by those of you in the UK.

My line of defence on those syncopated chords (I use the term syncopation loosely), is only in the sense that the chords sound in duple time in a triple time signature, unless my Grade 5 Music Theory is letting me down. But in the score, when a passage has been marked fortissimo at bar 113 (and I assume an LvB ff is different to a WMA ff but I haven’t studied this), then when those chords arrive at bar 128, each chord in each instrument is marked sf. There are 72 sforzandi in all (I’ve counted them – do I live a sad life?). This merits a sudden, spurious diminuendo, and a sudden, equally spurious crescendo, does it, for absolutely no reason at all?

Of course I’m on thin ice here, as how could I possibly argue with Norrington and now Vanska and Dausgaard. Only heaven knows the studies that they’ve carried out!

Clearly, I’m outnumbered and I’m never going to win this argument against such overwhelming odds, even though I have gently pleaded for evidence, or empirical data, or factual propositions, while maintaining a level of respect that my critics didn’t reciprocate with.

OK. That’s enough of me on this thread. I can’t think of much purpose in further contributions by me.

Mario

I think you might well be right in your analysis

[Bryn]

When it comes to the 'Erioca' Symphony, Norrington's 'live' recording with 'his' Stuttgarters, I think preferable to his already interesting recording with the LCP. For those who understand the German language, as he speaks it, the 'bonus' CD with the Stuttgarters' set in its earlier Hanssler Classic edition offers his comments on symphonies 1 to 8. Ironically, there is no lecture on the 9th, the one he openly professed to a misreading of when recording it with the LCP.

Ah, that on 'Eroica' is to be found on YouTube:

[RichardB]

Apparently I’m judged by someone who’s never met me to be someone who prefers “their music from 1803 to sound like it’s coming from 1950 instead of from 2021.”

My reference was to "some people, who prefer their music from 1803..." etc. and was intended as a general point rather than aimed at any particular individual. It isn't all about you!

As for performing unwritten dynamics: Beethoven's score doesn't contain that many dynamics so this aspect is open to interpretation on the grounds of structural and expressive shaping of the music. "Sforzando" doesn't necessarily indicate that a sound should be loud but more that it should be attacked in a certain way (as in the more sustained music marked "sfp" at bar 133).

[Ein Heldenleben]

My reference was to "some people, who prefer their music from 1803..." etc. and was intended as a general point rather than aimed at any particular individual. It isn't all about you!

As for performing unwritten dynamics: Beethoven's score doesn't contain that many dynamics so this aspect is open to interpretation on the grounds of structural and expressive shaping of the music. "Sforzando" doesn't necessarily indicate that a sound should be loud but more that it should be attacked in a certain way (as in the more sustained music marked "sfp" at bar 133).

Yes it’s surprisingly short of dynamic indication isn’t it? Compared to Mahler say. I wonder what conductors prefer ?

[seabright]

There are some people who think that Norrington's performance of the Vaughan Williams 6th with the San Francisco Symphony completely eclipses his Decca recording with the LPO. Judging by the comments under the video, some people may be right ... "Wow, dynamite!" ... "The best performance I've ever heard" ... "Superb" ... "Outstanding" ... etc. ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M11YIgtbTHM&t=3s

[Bryn]

There are some people who think that Norrington's performance of the Vaughan Williams 6th with the San Francisco Symphony completely eclipses his Decca recording with the LPO. Judging by the comments under the video, some people may be right ... "Wow, dynamite!" ... "The best performance I've ever heard" ... "Superb" ... "Outstanding" ... etc. ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M11YIgtbTHM&t=3s

Thanks for that. What a pity Daccca abandoned the survey at just 5 of the 9. I'd like to have heard him in the 8th and 9th in particular.

[Keraulophone]

35 performances of the opening bars of the ‘Eroica’ - https://youtu.be/gbfaI5h0ZWc

JEG, Blomstedt, E. Kleiber, Celibidache and Father Ted appealed the most… though still some good ones missing, eg Szell. Incidentally, why does Norrington (RSNO) direct the first two chords so much faster than the ensuing music? A basic error, I’d have thought.

[RichardB]

Yes it’s surprisingly short of dynamic indication isn’t it? Compared to Mahler say. I wonder what conductors prefer ?

The dearth of dynamic markings was normal in Beethoven's day, and of course before that, because performers were expected to work it out for themselves on grounds of good taste and expressiveness, which no doubt varied from one place to another a lot more than it does now, so that even in Beethoven's time there probably wouldn't have been a universal concept of how the music "should" be done, as developed in the later 20th century, this being one of the downsides of the age of recordings and broadcasts. I wonder how many people heard Beethoven's symphonies both in their early Viennese performances and in those in Paris a little later that had such an electrifying effect on the young Berlioz. They must have been very different in terms of things like dynamics.

So IF Roger Norrington takes liberties with Beethoven that most conductors of the early 20th century wouldn't have, that in itself takes it closer to the origins of the music at a time when people and performing traditions weren't relatively uniform over the whole of Europe, let alone elsewhere; which is also relevant to his Stuttgart Mahler performances.

Having said all this, when I want to listen to a Beethoven symphony I generally go for JEG rather than RN.

[cloughie]

Thanks for that. What a pity Daccca abandoned the survey at just 5 of the 9. I'd like to have heard him in the 8th and 9th in particular.

Yes but he did the best 5!

[Bryn]

Yes but he did the best 5!

True enough, though I have a soft spot for the 8th, especially as conducted by Glorious John.

[kea]

Same with the 5th - JEG has this to say about the last movement: "Imperceptibly, there comes another political motto, a reference to Rouget de Lisle’s Hymne Dithyrambique, specifically the phrase ‘Chantons la liberté’. It emerges gradually in the bass-line, passing to the trombones and the bassoons, and then to the violins. Then the whole orchestra is singing a hymn to liberty." I wonder how many conductors before JEG were aware of this reference which would have been familiar to many listeners when it was originally performed.

It is interesting to go through Rouget de Lisle's various songs with Beethoven in mind.

In addition to the Aux prodiges de la victoire reference—


there's also a Hymne à la Liberté which may also appear somewhat familiar in light of the finale of Beethoven's 5th—


and yet these happily coexist in the same books of songs and romances with hymns to various French monarchs, historical and present, suggesting no particular political allegiance to "liberté" on the part of Rouget de Lisle himself. Beethoven as well would of course later take a much more politically conservative turn, partly due to a need for institutional support from noble patrons. But references like this would undoubtedly affect audience reception.

[RichardB]

and yet these happily coexist in the same books of songs and romances with hymns to various French monarchs, historical and present, suggesting no particular political allegiance to "liberté" on the part of Rouget de Lisle himself.

Very interesting, thanks for that, I will take a look myself.

[seabright]

True enough, though I have a soft spot for the 8th, especially as conducted by Glorious John.

How would you say RVW8 as played by the Boston Symphony under Charles Munch compares with Barbirolli or, come to that, with Boult ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26Two4qjxmw&t=80s

[Bryn]

How would you say RVW8 as played by the Boston Symphony under Charles Munch compares with Barbirolli or, come to that, with Boult ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26Two4qjxmw&t=80s

My immediate reaction is that the Munch is rather prosaic, compared to Barbirolli. Ensemble is not all it should be, either. There again, this was a concert performance, rather than a studio one with the opportunity to patch questionable sections. The scherzo is very much American marching band, rather than north-country brass band, too. Good that Munch and the BSO got to perform it, though.