Czech and Hungarian Music and Interpreters

[richardfinegold]

In honor of Bernard Haitink, I was playing through the 20 CD “Phillips Collection “ set. The first disc features Bartok Concerto For Orchestra . BH had a wide repertoire and the Concergebouw can play anything and this was a very fine experience, my only complaint being that I is somewhat short on atmosphere. Haitink however finds the right kind of dance tempo for the music-in-pairs in II, the Shostakovich hazing episode is delicious , and the finale is suitably buoyant. For years the only recordings I had of this work were Reiner and Solti and the paprika seems to ooze out of those recordings. I’ve since added a few, one being Ivan Fischer-another Hungarian—a pair of utterly forgettable ones from Boston (Ozawa and Leinsdorf), but then Beantown restores its reputation with a Kubelik (Czech origin) led Quadraphonic effort that was re released on Pentatone .
Perusing a CD website I see that there are at least as many Czech Conductors as Hungarians for CFO. And then consider the prominence of Hungarian Conductors in Czech Music (Szell, Reiner, Solti, Kertesz, and others spring to mind). The music of Janacek, tailored to mirror the cadences of the Czech language and dialects, shows us how unique a language it is. Similarly, Magyar is not a Romance language, but it isn’t Slavic either, and appears to have little similarity to Czech.
The two peoples have a geographic proximity, and before the ethnic cleansing horrors of the 20th Century there was a fair amount of intermingling beyond borders. Both peoples were also dominated by German Speaking (Hapsburgs, primarily) Empires and German is the Lingua Franca of that part of Central Europe.
So should we looking and preferring interpreters of Czech or Hungarian music by peoples from the region? Or has Music become so internationalized that such ideas belong to the scrap heap of history?

[cloughie]

In honor of Bernard Haitink, I was playing through the 20 CD “Phillips Collection “ set. The first disc features Bartok Concerto For Orchestra . BH had a wide repertoire and the Concergebouw can play anything and this was a very fine experience, my only complaint being that I is somewhat short on atmosphere. Haitink however finds the right kind of dance tempo for the music-in-pairs in II, the Shostakovich hazing episode is delicious , and the finale is suitably buoyant. For years the only recordings I had of this work were Reiner and Solti and the paprika seems to ooze out of those recordings. I’ve since added a few, one being Ivan Fischer-another Hungarian—a pair of utterly forgettable ones from Boston (Ozawa and Leinsdorf), but then Beantown restores its reputation with a Kubelik (Czech origin) led Quadraphonic effort that was re released on Pentatone .
Perusing a CD website I see that there are at least as many Czech Conductors as Hungarians for CFO. And then consider the prominence of Hungarian Conductors in Czech Music (Szell, Reiner, Solti, Kertesz, and others spring to mind). The music of Janacek, tailored to mirror the cadences of the Czech language and dialects, shows us how unique a language it is. Similarly, Magyar is not a Romance language, but it isn’t Slavic either, and appears to have little similarity to Czech.
The two peoples have a geographic proximity, and before the ethnic cleansing horrors of the 20th Century there was a fair amount of intermingling beyond borders. Both peoples were also dominated by German Speaking (Hapsburgs, primarily) Empires and German is the Lingua Franca of that part of Central Europe.
So should we looking and preferring interpreters of Czech or Hungarian music by peoples from the region? Or has Music become so internationalized that such ideas belong to the scrap heap of history?

Well if you draw that to its logical conclusions as a Dutchman Haitink would have been an expert in Music from the Netherlands and little else - now in conclusion we may have now a greater understanding and back catalogue of interesting works but we would have missed out on the fruits of the great man’s wonderful career as it was from the late 1950s!
Mackerras, an Australian was as good an interpreter of Janacek as many Czech.

[richardfinegold]

Well if you draw that to its logical conclusions as a Dutchman Haitink would have been an expert in Music from the Netherlands and little else - now in conclusion we may have now a greater understanding and back catalogue of interesting works but we would have missed out on the fruits of the great man’s wonderful career as it was from the late 1950s!
Mackerras, an Australian was as good an interpreter of Janacek as many Czech.

Yes, Mackeras, but he spent many of his formative years training in Czechoslovakia, at least some of it under Talich

[jayne lee wilson]

You won't find better Bartok than on the Hungaroton Bartok New Series, with HNPO/Kocsis in the Concerto for Orchestra, the Wooden Prince and more, joined by Kelemen in the wild and free, gypsy-folk-accented Violin Concertos....on SACD too - rare now.

But there are other outliers who can do great things....

Krivine (one of the very rare conductor-geniuses) released a marvellous CFO with the 2nd Violin Concerto (Luxembourg PO/Tedi Papravami), as good as any, only problem is the fierce, slightly over-recorded sound in the Orchestral Concerto... you need to adjust your system there probably on those ferocious violins.... but a great disc...easily a match for Reiner or LSO/Solti (my first love, still great).....

Susanna Mälkki on BIS (Helsinki PO) is putting together a great series on BIS SACD as well, Wooden Prince, CFO and more.....

So Eastern European with those seductive Slav rhythms and lilts, wind, brass and bass, back to Ancerl, is my usual preference, but with carefully-heard-and-chosen gifted exceptions....

[visualnickmos]

You won't find better Bartok than on the Hungaroton Bartok New Series, with HNPO/Kocsis in the Concerto for Orchestra, the Wooden Prince and more, joined by Kelemen in the wild and free, gypsy-folk-accented Violin Concertos....on SACD too - rare now.

But there are other outliers who can do great things....

Krivine (one of the very rare conductor-geniuses) released a marvellous CFO with the 2nd Violin Concerto (Luxembourg PO/Tedi Papravami), as good as any, only problem is the fierce, slightly over-recorded sound in the Orchestral Concerto... you need to adjust your system there probably on those ferocious violins.... but a great disc...easily a match for Reiner or LSO/Solti (my first love, still great).....

Susanna Mälkki on BIS (Helsinki PO) is putting together a great series on BIS SACD as well, Wooden Prince, CFO and more.....

So Eastern European with those seductive Slav rhythms and lilts, wind, brass and bass, back to Ancerl, is my usual preference, but with carefully-heard-and-chosen gifted exceptions....

All good stuff, but one small niggle; Hungarians are not Slavs, ergo, their culture and language are not Slavonic.

[richardfinegold]

All good stuff, but one small niggle; Hungarians are not Slavs, ergo, their culture and language are not Slavonic.

Indeed, Magyar isn’t a Romance or a Slavic one either. I believe it’s roots are Central Asian. Which is what I was trying to get at in my post. Since Magyar is a tough language for non natives (I dated a Hungarian women once, eons ago), isn’t it surprising that so many Czechs are so proficient in music of Hungarian Composers? Jlw mentioned Ancerl. Kubelik, Behlolavik, Jacob Hausa, and others. I postulate it’s due to the geographical proximity and intermingling of the populations, especially considering that Hungarian musicians seem to have a flare for Czech composers.
Not that I will tossing my Boulez Bartok discs any time soon

[french frank]

All good stuff, but one small niggle; Hungarians are not Slavs

True, though jayne mentioned the 'rhythms and lilts'. It occurs to me that the Finno-Ugric languages including Hungarian resemble the Slavic languages in stressing the first syllable of words, which probably does create similar speech rhythms. They must have had quite a bit common within the old Austrian Empire too.

[visualnickmos]

True, though jayne mentioned the 'rhythms and lilts'. It occurs to me that the Finno-Ugric languages including Hungarian resemble the Slavic languages in stressing the first syllable of words, which probably does create similar speech rhythms. They must have had quite a bit common within the old Austrian Empire too.

Quite possibly, but in no way can anything that is Hungarian, be described as Slavic, which is the point I was making.

[kernelbogey]

They must have had quite a bit common within the old Austrian Empire too.

The Austro-Hungarian Empire encompassed most of former Jugoslavia: I'd hazard a guess that the mix of cultures and languages which it embraced may be a background influence here.

[Howdenite]

True, though jayne mentioned the 'rhythms and lilts'. It occurs to me that the Finno-Ugric languages including Hungarian resemble the Slavic languages in stressing the first syllable of words, which probably does create similar speech rhythms. They must have had quite a bit common within the old Austrian Empire too.

But not all Slavic languages stress the first syllable. Polish stresses the 2nd last. Russian varies. I don't know about the others, though... Still, that would apply to Hungarian and Czech.

[french frank]

But not all Slavic languages stress the first syllable. Polish stresses the 2nd last. Russian varies. I don't know about the others, though... Still, that would apply to Hungarian and Czech.

You're right, of course! I was focused on Czech. There are also theories of a genetic connection between Huns, Slavs, Magyars etc and conquest and settlement would certainly have blurred some distinctions (though notably not linguistic).

Afterthought: I only know two words in Polish, neither of which are stressed on the first syllable. I hardly dare to attempt spelling them. I think Djenkuje and Przeprzaszam (the second one reminds of the joke about the Polish man who went for an eye test).

[jayne lee wilson]

"Eastern European".........Scarcely original to point out that Hungary is surrounded by Slavic Nations and Artistic Influences.....

So Listen to Dvorak's Slavonic Dances, Brahms' Hungarian Dances.....on Eastern European Orchestras if you can (they bring something others can't, however individually inspired....its there when Ançerl plays Dvorak or Janacek....but also in his Brahms.....)....

And see what connections/contrasts your ear and brain may perceive.........

[Serial_Apologist]

"Eastern European".........Scarcely original to point out that Hungary is surrounded by Slavic Nations and Artistic Influences.....

So Listen to Dvorak's Slavonic Dances, Brahms' Hungarian Dances.....on Eastern European Orchestras if you can (they bring something others can't, however individually inspired....its there when Ançerl plays Dvorak or Janacek....but also in his Brahms.....)....

And see what connections/contrasts your ear and brain may perceive.........

When it comes to Bartok, what (for me) is fascinating is that he started out as a fanatical nationalist (understandable in some ways) and yet, after years investigating the provenance and evolution of the folk music influences he had uncovered in the historical background, what united the different sources was what musically they had in common, verbal language differences notwithstanding. This made him a Modernist, someone who, by defining a new musical language and formal correlatives thereto, contributed irrevocably to "our" musical culture.