The Handwriting of the Conductor

[kernelbogey]

I'm more interested in your quote - "The sound is the handwriting of the conductor" - Bernard Haitink

One of my friends years ago - a musician - went to a concert conducted by Kurt Masur. His comment to me afterwards was that the sound of the orchestra - which I think was one of the regular UK orchestras - was completely different, and very well balanced. He was obviously very struck with the balancing of the sound.

I'm not sure that many conductors have such a strongly identifiable signature - based solely on the sound. They may have noticeable characteristics based on what they do with the pieces they conduct, or simply even the fact that they are conducting those pieces, but how many conductors really do have such a strong influence on the sound that they can be rapidly identified?

That has to be worth a thread on its own - so interesting!

[Petrushka]

That has to be worth a thread on its own - so interesting!

I agree. We seem to be short of music threads at the moment so would welcome Dave's post moved across to the relevant board.

[french frank]

Moved in the hope of a discussion. Does anyone really recognise a conductor's style from a recording, or in a live performance?

[gradus]

Amongst those extant, Norrington seems an obvious choice, Currentzis is another. I'd add Klemperer, Beecham, Stokowski, Karajan and Toscaninni, none of whose performances sounded like anyone else, to my ears at least.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Moved in the hope of a discussion. Does anyone really recognise a conductor's style from a recording, or in a live performance?

Yes. I can usually pick out a Barbirolli recording, though it probably only works with a multiple choice selection.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Yes. I can usually pick out a Barbirolli recording, though it probably only works with a multiple choice selection.

One of the hallmarks of a Barbirolli performance is the care and attention he pays to the string sound.

Others I usually have less difficulty identifying
Klemperer particularly on EMI - slow tempi , distinct sound both of recording and orchestra
Karajan 60’s / 70’s recordings with BPO - very refined sound . Extreme string legato
Bernstein - wild tempo fluctuations…
Toscanini- dry acoustic , fast and virtuosic


And that’s about it..

[Petrushka]

There's an interview with one of the old members of the Berlin Philharmonic on video somewhere in which he recalled a routine rehearsal with a particular conductor. Unknown to most of the orchestra, Furtwängler crept into the back of the hall and all of a sudden the sound of the orchestra transformed itself completely to his sound.

This is something that is probably more noticeable to orchestral musicians than the record buying public but everybody talks of the 'Karajan sound' which is indeed unique to him and recognisable to most. Musicians have said the same of Haitink, that they play with a different sound the moment he steps on to the podium. The difficulty is in describing exactly what it is and how it's done. Haitink himself has no idea, just that it is so, beyond explanation.

[Petrushka]

One of the hallmarks of a Barbirolli performance is the care and attention he pays to the string sound.

Others I usually have less difficulty identifying
Klemperer particularly on EMI - slow tempi , distinct sound both of recording and orchestra
Karajan 60’s / 70’s recordings with BPO - very refined sound . Extreme string legato
Bernstein - wild tempo fluctuations…
Toscanini- dry acoustic , fast and virtuosic


And that’s about it..

I think we have to be careful not to attribute this difference in sound quality to recorded sound which is why I suggest that orchestral players will be more able to notice it than record buyers. Having said that, though, Klemperer is one who has his individual sound more than most. It's instructive to listen to the 1950s Philharmonia Beethoven recordings with both Karajan and Klemperer. Same players (mostly), same recording venue, same engineers but you know who's conducting!

It would be interesting to hear from Tony Halstead for an orchestral musician's perspective.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I think we have to be careful not to attribute this difference in sound quality to recorded sound which is why I suggest that orchestral players will be more able to notice it than record buyers. Having said that, though, Klemperer is one who has his individual sound more than most. It's instructive to listen to the 1950s Philharmonia Beethoven recordings with both Karajan and Klemperer. Same players (mostly), same recording venue, same engineers but you know who's conducting!

It would be interesting to hear from Tony Halstead for an orchestral musician's perspective.

I think the recorded sound is sometimes absolutely part of the signature . The conductors usually come into the booth and sign off the takes . We know that Toscanini liked the dry acoustic for his NBC recordings and Karajan even did his own mix downs - with mixed results …

[Bella Kemp]

I would add Mravinsky to the list. I defy anyone not to recognise his Shostakovich.

[kernelbogey]

"The sound is the handwriting of the conductor" - Bernard Haitink

You might see the same paragraph of neutral prose hand written by, say, Tom Stoppard, Ted Hughes and Sebastian Faulks. If there was no indication of who had written what, you would not be able to identify them by the writing alone. Nonetheless certain characterstics might stand out from each; and after being told who wrote which, you might be able to marry handwriting styles with their language as writers.

If you began with, say, five such examples and a list of ten 'possible' authors, you might intuit who had written what.

I begin from the actual words of Haitink's metaphor.

He did not say, for example, 'The sound is the signature of the conductor'.

[Petrushka]

You might see the same paragraph of neutral prose hand written by, say, Tom Stoppard, Ted Hughes and Sebastian Faulks. If there was no indication of who had written what, you would not be able to identify them by the writing alone. Nonetheless certain characterstics might stand out from each; and after being told who wrote which, you might be able to marry handwriting styles with their language as writers.

If you began with, say, five such examples and a list of ten 'possible' authors, you might intuit who had written what.

I begin from the actual words of Haitink's metaphor.

He did not say, for example, 'The sound is the signature of the conductor'.

The original quote was in Dutch (I think I got it from the Dutch Radio 4 website) which I can't now find and I did a Google translate to give the English version. In this context, I feel pretty sure that 'signature' is more likely closer to Haitink's original meaning.

[cloughie]

This is an interesting thread but though we no doubt all have our favourites would our identification of conductors be down to identifying style and how much on the recorded sound!

It would be interesting to have a ‘blind tasting’ session.

The work Beethoven’s Eroica

Play samples from 10 recordings.

List 11 conductors eg Barbirolli, Bernstein, Haitink, Karajan, Klemperer, Monteux, Toscanini, E Kleiber, Solti, Szell, Zinman and see which of us could say whose recording was not there.

We can all enjoy the signature of a conductor but our listening enjoyment is usually done knowing it is that conductor.

Did Toscanini really enjoy a dry acoustic or was that what he was stuck with as the state of the art in the 1940s and early 50s - I’ve always thought I would have enjoyed his great performances more had the recording quality been better! His Philharmonia recordings of the Brahms symphonies are in many ways better than the NBC recordings.

[richardfinegold]

Henry Fogel was the President of the CSO for many years and has a regular radio show here. This topic is a recurrent subject for him. He is also a Furtwangler specialist and I have heard him talk repeatedly about how W.F. built his sound from the ground up, and I think one can get a sense of that in some of the better recorded Furt pieces. Then there is the Stowkowsi sound, which Ormandy if anything intensified in Philly, with all the free bowing. Great for Tchaikovsky, not so much for Haydn.
Paul Paray in Detroit cultivated a French sound with light, lithe strings and prominent woodwinds and punchy but not over bearing brass. The Mercury remastering are great for clarifying what was achieved there, which frequently couldn't be gleamed from the scratchy lps.
This is an endlessly fascinating topic, at least for aficionados.

[richardfinegold]

Perhaps this should be in the HIPP discussions, but we tend to talk about that "sound" as if it were monolithic, and of course it isn't. Compare a Beethoven Symphony as performed by Jordi Savall with AAM/Hogwood Savall has much more bass presence. It obviously won't be mistaken for Furtwangler but I do think that J.S. is paying more attention to the "foundation" and CH priorities are elsewhere. I prefer the Savall but ymmv, of course