Suzuki method

[Tony Halstead]

Absolutely right .You can also get a piano tuner to adjust the key weight so that smaller hands don’t have to make quite as much effort to depress the keys.Have to say I’m not sure how good a piano you’ll get for £500 though. I would have thought £1000 the bare minimum. There are some good rental deals around where the shop will knock quite a bit off the price after a few months rental .

I'm pretty sure that a conventional piano tuner can't adjust the key weight of an electronic/ digital piano, which is what EA was referencing.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I'm pretty sure that a conventional piano tuner can't adjust the key weight of an electronic/ digital piano, which is what EA was referencing.

Yes you’re right . Not even Yamaha are that clever !

[Dave2002]

Most don't work as pianos - not having proper weighted keyboards - but that might not matter for young learners.

It may indeed be heresy, but the first thing to do is surely to get some enthusiasm for music and playing it.

Hopefully that will come from the young person. I'm not sure that well meaning adults who buy more expensive instruments and lessons for their offspring are always very successful - at least as far their own ambitions are concerned. If there's a flicker of interest then it makes sense to remove obstacles and provide tuition and better instruments, but without some motivation and desire from the child there possibly won't be the outcomes which the adults are trying to project onto the children.

Getting the balance right between pushing hard and providing too much support and being completely indifferent to the wishes of a child is very hard. I don't really have an answer.

[ardcarp]

The Suzuki Method for the violin can produce amazing players, though it depends on a very good Suzuki teacher who has done all the official training, and upon the child, i.e. a child who, in addition to being musical, does not mind going with the flow. One who is too individualistic or obstinate is likely to rebel! And they must start young. The method is likened to learning a language as a 'mother tongue'. This includes constant repetition in the early stages (Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star or Go Tell Aunt Rhody) which can drive a family mad. The aim is to give huge emphasis to lovely bowing, tuning, and producing as good a tone as a small violin will allow. One sees huge classes of Japanese children who obviously accept the drill. Reading the dots comes later, and providing it is done according to the scheme, there is no reason why Suzuki-trained players should not become good sight-readers.

I know less about Suzuki piano, though I guess the principles are the same....good posture, finger shape and position, producing good tone, all achieved by plenty of repetition. I think also it is recommended that the teacher has at least two pianos and can sit at one while the pupil/s copy him/her.

In short The Method does depend on the child...and it does depend on co-operative parents who are willing learn the drill and help kids with their practice. No good just saying to a five-year-old, "Go and do your practice".

Hope that helps.

[Dave2002]

...and it does depend on co-operative parents who are willing learn the drill and help kids with their practice. No good just saying to a five-year-old, "Go and do your practice".

Hope that helps.

I think that's the point I was trying to make earlier, and also one has to question the motives of parents. Are they doing it for the child or for themselves? Perhaps realistically a bit of both - and it may be better than parents who take no interest at all. I think this kind of issue comes up in sport too - and some very successful sports people have admitted they hated their training and felt that they lost out on their childhood.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

One highly respected violin teacher I worked with was very sceptical about the success rate of Suzuki teaching. Whilst acknowledging its merits, he said it often worked like this: flying start at 5 - Mendelssohn concerto at 11 - giving up at 13

[rauschwerk]

One highly respected violin teacher I worked with was very sceptical about the success rate of Suzuki teaching. Whilst acknowledging its merits, he said it often worked like this: flying start at 5 - Mendelssohn concerto at 11 - giving up at 13

But surely such achievement must have done the pupil some good? When I considered training as a Suzuki teacher, I was told that the majority of students on Juilliard performing courses are Suzuki trained.

[Ein Heldenleben]

But surely such achievement must have done the pupil some good? When I considered training as a Suzuki teacher, I was told that the majority of students on Juilliard performing courses are Suzuki trained.

Wasn’t the blinding revelation from Suzuki that you didn’t need one to one tuition to get to a good standard? That had major implications for the teaching industry perhaps ., Successful teachers could earn a decent income with fewer hours and parents paid less. I had one to one piano tuition for years - must have cost a small fortune. Though the teacher was an RAM medallist - a quite phenomenal player . My children had group piano tuition with about ten in a class with some(shock , horror ) on electronic keyboards and both got to grade 8 before 18.

[kernelbogey]

It may indeed be heresy, but the first thing to do is surely to get some enthusiasm for music and playing it....

Completely agree - in this instance it is already there in embryo, I believe!

Hopefully that will come from the young person. [...] If there's a flicker of interest then it makes sense to remove obstacles and provide tuition and better instruments, but without some motivation and desire from the child there possibly won't be the outcomes which the adults are trying to project onto the children.

Having survived this myself, and at least gained a lifelong love of classical music, if not instrumental skills, I am hyperalert to those dangers!

Getting the balance right between pushing hard and providing too much support and being completely indifferent to the wishes of a child is very hard. I don't really have an answer.

Being in the happy position of a (geographically) distant grandfather gives me some flexibility in dealing with those issues for my granddaughter, and with the degree of interest shown by her parents. Unfortunately the option of offering to drive her to lessons etc is not available.

This thread continues to be immensely helpful - thanks to all posters!

[Dave2002]

Just listened to most of this interview - https://soundcloud.com/ericwhitacre/...wards-may-2012 with Eric Whitacre.

He couldn't even read music until he was 18, and it seems he "got into it" by joining a choir in order to meet girls. I guess he's done "all right" since then.

So early starts aren't always necessary, though they may help if a young person wants to try and is given appropriate encouragement so it doesn't become something they hate later.

In the particular situation mentioned which kicked off this thread, I guess a good piano really would be a good idea - but the constraints would appear to be space - and maybe cost too.
A good piano is likely to cost well over £1k probably rather more, and despite my previous threads about electronic pianos and keyboards, even most of the expensive ones are not as good as a regular piano costing around £3k - say a Kawai.

I don't suppose our OP wants to provide a new flat or house for his younger relatives! [ though the BOMD usually does ....]

[mikealdren]

Just listened to most of this interview - https://soundcloud.com/ericwhitacre/...wards-may-2012 with Eric Whitacre.

He couldn't even read music until he was 18, and it seems he "got into it" by joining a choir in order to meet girls. I guess he's done "all right" since then.

You can learn the academic side of music at any age, the brain is amazing. However, some instruments require motor skills and digital flexibility that are hard to acquire later in life.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Just listened to most of this interview - https://soundcloud.com/ericwhitacre/...wards-may-2012 with Eric Whitacre.

He couldn't even read music until he was 18, and it seems he "got into it" by joining a choir in order to meet girls. I guess he's done "all right" since then.

So early starts aren't always necessary, though they may help if a young person wants to try and is given appropriate encouragement so it doesn't become something they hate later.

In the particular situation mentioned which kicked off this thread, I guess a good piano really would be a good idea - but the constraints would appear to be space - and maybe cost too.
A good piano is likely to cost well over £1k probably rather more, and despite my previous threads about electronic pianos and keyboards, even most of the expensive ones are not as good as a regular piano costing around £3k - say a Kawai.

I don't suppose our OP wants to provide a new flat or house for his younger relatives! [ though the BOMD usually does ....]

It’s not a bad idea to rent before buying . You only really need to do half an hours proper practice a day. One wizard wheeze at sec school was to go to the music practice studios during the lunch hour thus avoiding freezing on the playing fields. No one ever seemed to stop you . This was a state school with three uprights and two grands (all Danemanns) . Does this sort of thing happen now or is all electro?
Couldn’t help noticing 10 years ago that the local private school had three Yammy’s - all boudoir grands …now those are nice pianos ..

[gradus]

It’s not a bad idea to rent before buying . You only really need to do half an hours proper practice a day. One wizard wheeze at sec school was to go to the music practice studios during the lunch hour thus avoiding freezing on the playing fields. No one ever seemed to stop you . This was a state school with three uprights and two grands (all Danemanns) . Does this sort of thing happen now or is all electro?
Couldn’t help noticing 10 years ago that the local private school had three Yammy’s - all boudoir grands …now those are nice pianos ..

Didn't the RFH 'come with' Danemann grands originally, before the Steinway hegemony.

[Bryn]

Didn't the RFH 'come with' Danemann grands originally, before the Steinway hegemony.

Really? Are Danemann's not mainly known as serviceable school pianos? That's certainly the opinion of a Steinway-trained piano technician friend.

Aha: https://www.vandaimages.com/1000LM12...-souvenir.html

[ardcarp]

and also one has to question the motives of parents. Are they doing it for the child or for themselves?

Hmm. That's a tricky one. Most parents want to do the best for their children. A kid shouldn't be 'put to the piano' as was frequently done, especially for girls, in previous generations. But realising a talent and wanting a child to make the most of it can hardly be classed as a selfish motive, surely?

(Sorry I couldn't stick with the Eric Whitacre interview. He only seems to have one musical palette, all very lovely of course, but when you've heard one piece the others are all the same. Biased view, I know. Maybe it should be on The Choir?)