'To Hell with the young'

[Cockney Sparrow]

Live performance made a big impression - singing the Nelson Mass and Mozart Requiem for two, before I was 16, then my interest aroused going to Proms, Midland Proms (R Opera H)and wherever I could but nonetheless limited in number so of course I collected records, used the record library and listened to Radio Three (post the Third programme era by then).

And for all of the hundreds of recordings I possess, they are evoking memories of live performance - actual performances or imagined - in the sense I may not even have heard the work in question live. Live performance provides the best experience, and on occasion the most thrilling - for me. When I am housebound, I've lived off those memories. I must donate to the LSO/LPO/PO/CBSO/RLPO the Sixteen, etc to support them in this period when I'm choosing not to go to their concerts. I want them to be there when I exercise my freedoms to go!

Mrs CS was a dedicated teacher of music in primary schools and felt that achieving progress in learning and performing music offered children a great deal - we all know the benefits.

She hoped that going to concerts for children with the LSO, the LPO etc would have a big impact on the children, she thought them brilliantly executed. I hope the concerts did make an unforgettable impression - to this day I stand in awe at the thought of that number of people assembling with the level of skills they demonstrate and achieving such wonderful sounds and insights.

As the children would usually be aged about 10, the hope was that, at the least it might be a hook to give "classical music" a chance at some future date, and that if asked to write down their experience of the day it would reflect the musical experience rather than the possible infant focus such as "the best bit was when we all had an ice cream by the River Thames and then Rachel was sick on the coach home.........." One hour away, a surprising number had never been to the sights of the riverside or the South Bank, the City etc (taken in on a whistlestop walking circuit before heading back to school/home.

For those not close to orchestral home grounds, will they get the chance from orchestras coming to their localities - unfortunately I suspect not, not in these or coming days....

[richardfinegold]

I have no idea how generalizeable my experience is. There were approximately 600 people in my High School Graduating Class. Since I went to a large state supported school for the next 8 years of studies I was able to keep in touch with many of them. I know that there were about 20 who became Classical music devotees, that I would see at Concerts, record stores, etc. We tend to form strong attachments as adolescents, particularly to hobbies and interests. Ignoring the Young would be suicidal

[french frank]

Ignoring the Young would be suicidal

Don't think I can face even the 13 minutes of watching David Hurwitz, but his comment that "The future of classical music lies with seniors" poses some questions

It may be an upward struggle, but attracting a young audience to classical music is the only way for it to survive, surely? The difficult bit is how to do it. Not letting Radio 3 do it would be a start.

[jayne lee wilson]

Don't think I can face even the 13 minutes of watching David Hurwitz, but his comment that "The future of classical music lies with seniors" poses some questions

It may be an upward struggle, but attracting a young audience to classical music is the only way for it to survive, surely? The difficult bit is how to do it. Not letting Radio 3 do it would be a start.

But what about Proms 2021? The mix, blend and range of repertoire/programme (and presentational styles, including from the platform for the Manchester Collective) showed at least some of the ways forward, and quite brilliantly too, didn't it?

[Katzelmacher]

Don’t like Hurwitz. Can’t listen to him. There’s something very offensive about his cheesy ‘Noo Yawk’ voice and style.

His comments to people who like Wagner? ‘Don’t worry. You’ll grow out of it.’

Reluctant as I am to offer agreement, he may just have a point here. But I thought the attempt to attract ‘the young’ was old hat, dating back to some point in the early 90s when CDs were a booming industry: certain singers - Bartoli, Georghiu and Alaina - were marketed as pop stars. But it didn’t work, because they were singing ‘old’ music played by orchestras.

I’d say that anyone who’s genuinely ‘into’ music - not just a particular genre if music — will discover orchestral/opera/lieder at some point and will become a deep fan. Trying to shepherd people into the fold generally has disastrous results.

[french frank]

But what about Proms 2021? The mix, blend and range of repertoire/programme (and presentational styles, including from the platform for the Manchester Collective) showed at least some of the ways forward, and quite brilliantly too, didn't it?

I can't really answer that question as I don't know how successful this is at attracting - and keeping - a new, (young) audience. In some ways, I'm more enthusiastic about the Family Proms, but even so that largely depends on parents. Making Tracks was taken off (I was told) because Radio 3 had too few parents with children of the appropriate age to lead them over to Radio 3. That is surely why one needs the likes of Radio 1 and 6 Music to integrate a bit of classical music. But my opinion - and this may be controversial - is that classical music needs to be casually flagged as classical music in the same way as jazz is jazz and world music is world music. It is a Thing which can be explored further if a particular work is heard and appeals; and recognised as part of a genre which is not all off-putting, stuffy and Old. The Classic FM-Hendrix clash comes up again with BBC radio. The 'wisdom' is that your Radio 1 audience will be 'horrified' if they find themselves listening to Vivaldi, and will be lost to Radio 1 if you don't give them what they want to hear.

I don't think the Proms and Radio 3 are the best way in. It also needs presenters from the 'pop' world who can genuinely enthuse about classical music, not people who are prepared to mug up bits of Wikipedia if paid to do so.

[gurnemanz]

If these statements are true, how to explain my own listening to this station (possibly under earlier names) between the ages 15-19? I do not claim personal exceptionalism here , but I seriously wonder whether younger people can be so ruthlessly (and thoughtlessly) sidelined.

Or has the world changed that much in 60 years?

My impression not really based on reliable evidence is that things have not actually changed that much over the years. I stopped listening to pop stations aged about 17-18 in the late 60s and turned to Radio 3 and 4 as my staples. I still enjoy some rock music and have quite a few favourite singers in that genre but listen to them only via CD etc and now streaming, never radio. There still seems to be about the same number of young people around who like classical music.

Interestingly, our daughter, now 39, is the other way round from me. She played the violin in a youth orchestra, playing the classical repertoire. Her main interest has always been rock but she likes some classical and often goes to ROH for ballet. She went to a Prom this year - Elgar Cello, Janáček Taras Bulba - but would never listen to R3.

Our son was also in the youth orchestra but has never been interested in listening to classical music.

[Dave2002]

My impression not really based on reliable evidence is that things have not actually changed that much over the years. I stopped listening to pop stations aged about 17-18 in the late 60s and turned to Radio 3 and 4 as my staples. I still enjoy some rock music and have quite a few favourite singers in that genre but listen to them only via CD etc and now streaming, never radio. There still seems to be about the same number of young people around who like classical music.

Interestingly, our daughter, now 39, is the other way round from me. She played the violin in a youth orchestra, playing the classical repertoire. Her main interest has always been rock but she likes some classical and often goes to ROH for ballet. She went to a Prom this year - Elgar Cello, Janáček Taras Bulba - but would never listen to R3.

Our son was also in the youth orchestra but has never been interested in listening to classical music.

There are many assumptions which one might make. One is that exposure to something (e.g. classical music) will lead to liking it. Another is that being competent or even good at something implies that one will like doing that, and prefer to do that over other activities. In recent years I have come across people who were good at doing things, but when I asked them whether they enjoyed those, they said "no", and would clearly prefer to do other things. Of course sometimes there might be just one part of an activity which presents a significant barrier - for example someone who is very technically competent and who has produced a very large software system may not wish to talk about that because he or she doesn't like public speaking, but it might still be wrong to think that such barriers are the reasons why some people claim to dislike doing things they are actually very competent at.

[LeMartinPecheur]

I hadn't twigged that the Kanneh-Masons and Jess Gillam were all middle-aged! When do we say goodbye to Young Musician of the Year?

[cloughie]

I hadn't twigged that the Kanneh-Masons and Jess Gillam were all middle-aged! When do we say goodbye to Young Musician of the Year?

http://www.kannehmasons.com/project/kanneh-mason-siblings/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jess_Gillam

Well if they’re middle-aged I’m verging on exceedingly aged!

[Serial_Apologist]

There are many assumptions which one might make. One is that exposure to something (e.g. classical music) will lead to liking it. Another is that being competent or even good at something implies that one will like doing that, and prefer to do that over other activities. In recent years I have come across people who were good at doing things, but when I asked them whether they enjoyed those, they said "no", and would clearly prefer to do other things. Of course sometimes there might be just one part of an activity which presents a significant barrier - for example someone who is very technically competent and who has produced a very large software system may not wish to talk about that because he or she doesn't like public speaking, but it might still be wrong to think that such barriers are the reasons why some people claim to dislike doing things they are actually very competent at.

I suppose it depends on how creatively they were initially encouraged to engage in said pursuits. It always saddened me that my mother, a brilliant LRAM-qualified pianist, compared with the inept me, declared towards the end of her days that she had never enjoyed piano playing, not even for the enjoyment she gave others. Whereas I, who fumble imitatively at improving in a vaguely Bill Evans manner on overworked standards, obtain the greatest joy whenever I believe I am getting somewhere with it. And to defray that hurt she took it out on me as a child.

In Mum's case I think it was because, in line with many a lower middle class upbringing before WW1, once it was discovered that she had gifts, she was used as a shop window to the family's respectability: look what we have produced, sort of thing. Classical music repertoire lends itself to this, inasmuch as it is predicated on athleticism, which is but part of what the soul of classical music is about and reproducing scores, along with raising arbitrarily arrived at standards.

[cloughie]

But what about Proms 2021? The mix, blend and range of repertoire/programme (and presentational styles, including from the platform for the Manchester Collective) showed at least some of the ways forward, and quite brilliantly too, didn't it?

Yes, some to like and some not so likeable for me - but that’s fine and I guess as it should be. I think young people will make their own minds up about what and how they will do their music listening and any evolution of tastes will come from that BUT they need exposure to it and this should come from R1 2 and 6 or whatever commercial stations if they listen at all or as the soundtracks of their Netflix or Amazon film streams. I guess few teenagers are as hungry for the wide range of music that I sought out in my mid teens!
I don’t think that the Beeb has very much respect for older listeners!

[ardcarp]

Having just seen the thread title, I'm reminded of Groucho Marx's comment, "I don't care a fig for the future generation. What have they ever done for me?".

[jayne lee wilson]

Yes, some to like and some not so likeable for me - but that’s fine and I guess as it should be. I think young people will make their own minds up about what and how they will do their music listening and any evolution of tastes will come from that BUT they need exposure to it and this should come from R1 2 and 6 or whatever commercial stations if they listen at all or as the soundtracks of their Netflix or Amazon film streams. I guess few teenagers are as hungry for the wide range of music that I sought out in my mid teens!
I don’t think that the Beeb has very much respect for older listeners!

Part of the problem is with trying to define "age groups" .... who says when "youth" becomes "middle-aged" or "elderly"...? So any idea of appealing to such categories is doomed - especially when so many have little interest, present or historical, in "Classical" anyway...

I too was a late-teens beneficiary of PBS - more specifically, that precious symbiotic relationship between Radio 3 and the Gramophone. Without that and the local Record Library, I'd never have known, or even begun to know, most of the music I came to love so much.

The division between them, largely due to the Radio 3 Controllership from the mid-90s on, damaged both. But Gramophone has returned to its principles of the broadest and deepest "Classical" coverage now (just look at recent lengthy features on Levit and Malcolm Arnold), and uptodate technologically with its links to Qobuz etc and its HiFi reviews and reports. Remarkably brave bold and modernised, it should be essential reading for any modern Classical Enthusiast, yet too many still carp at it; pick one off the newsagents shelf and nitpick...

R3 still seems to flounder a little in its attempts to reach out, but I feel some sympathy with them there - the world changes and continues to change, so quickly...how do you define your goals?.....
Above all, the vast percentage of its musical output, Afternoon and Evening Concerts and TTN, is still "Classical" as broadly conceived....I hope the Proms continues as boldly next year, hopefully with greater freedom to attend and better audience figures.

****

Young or earlyish middle-aged people (oh those categories again..) in my immediate neighbourhood seem to see music as a mobile pleasure (until they hit the clubs) - headphones jogging or walking, or booming bass in cars, always on - they might listen to some Classical Tracks, yes - but how do you promote a "radio station" when most of them are streaming?

[french frank]

In Mum's case I think it was because, in line with many a lower middle class upbringing before WW1, once it was discovered that she had gifts, she was used as a shop window to the family's respectability

I'm not sure that my grandfather had that view of his eldest daughter - my aunt - who achieved what the family termed her "cap and gown" (but was actually her ALCM) when she was 14 or 15. She taught piano before WWII, became a 'munitions inspector' as her war work (being unmarried) and after the war became a shop assistant in music, shoe and menswear shops. She was never known to open her piano. Yet of Three Sisters, she was the only one to show any musical aptitude. She showed no interest in classical music at all, though I doubt she could have gained her ALCM without playing much of it.

As for early exposure to classical music, no, it doesn't guarantee a liking for it. But non-exposure doesn't guarantee a later discovery of it.