The piano

[Mandryka]

Wieland is a good friend of mine (as is Pavlos). His father was the novelist Russell Hoban. While music like Kagel's "instrumental theatre" (Acustica is a prime example of course) creates part of its effect by using sound-producing objects not usually seen or heard on the concert stage except maybe at the back of the orchestra as "sound-effects", Wieland's piano piece takes a familiar sound-producing object, played by the two hands of a pianist on the keyboard, and composes more or less each movement of each finger individually, so that the music you hear (and see) is the product of this composed and notated physicality. I don't think it has anything to to with Barraqué.

Ah, like Aaron Cassidy I suppose. I've been really enjoying the music he's put on soundcloud, a quartet for example.

There's a performance of that piano piece on his soundcloud by Ian Pace, who I guess created the music -- but it's good to actually see it on youtube I think.

[Serial_Apologist]

That’s an interesting thought!



I think he means the artificiality of the circumstances. Here’s my first shot at an exegesis

The meta-personal style of the genre would be something like what Beethoven does in a slow movement - he basically uses musical tricks to mesmerise the listener, lull the listener into believing a sort of expressive effusion, and make the listener forget for the movement that he’s in fact listening go a technician press keys on a piano. A Beethoven sonata is, in some sense, a lie - the performer is not in fact feeling what’s being expressed (thank God) and for all we know the composer wasn’t either. These ideas have been around since Brecht.

Yes I think I see it now. In fact, this is one of my reasons for not listening to a great deal of the classical repertoire, including that which is much loved, because the further one gets from its inception the more difficult to identify with feeling and ideas inspired in it. We know so much more today - or we assume and hope we do - and feelings are inspired not only by what confronts but by concepts and beliefs peculiar to their times which are subject to the vagaries of mediation in which, in any case, they are couched. But at the same time, there *must* be something inherent in those notes, harmonies and what not beyond artifice for it to have managed to appeal for so long, otherwise nobody would want to have anything to do with them, notwithstanding the blithe claims of "universality" inferred by commentators for, often, ideological reasons of the worst sort. This is an argument I use to back up the idea that what music which is most long lasting, and, to some, "timeless", has given us was waiting for *understanding* in its widest and (dare one say) most enlightening forms to reveal and be revealed, if that makes any sense! ! In other words, inherent, but just waiting for evolving history at given junctures to reveal. It's also my rationale for believing strongly in jazz, as being a music containing enough of the residue of what white slave-owning societies did their best to suppress of African musical cultures - and elements in those musics that European composition had been eliminating, such as a rhythmic "complexity" "natural" to its making - while concentrating on expanding other elements, chief among them diatonic tonality and tempered tuning. Music serving to appeal bodily was seen as for the working people to sing and dance to, not to leasured classes with time to luxuriate in music and art with, er, higher, exclusive things to reflect on and express. Jazz took on - has taken on - what it felt met its own needs to express the growing complexities of living and needs to grasp how the individual both shaped and was shaped in relation to circumstances which could be in his or her hands, but did so on its own terms: those terms being the forms and conventions natural musical endowment shaped through oral memories and practices. The academicisation of jazz that has been gathering force since the 1950s, now making it an institution less accessible to those without financial backup, and the consequences in terms of modifying its place and spirit, is another question!

Some composers underline the artificiality of expression of performance by directing the musicians to do absurd and unexpected things. I’ve never actually seen a performance of, for example, Kagel’s Der Schall or Acoustica, but my guess is that that’s what he does. On the other hand I have seen Jennifer Walsh’s music in performance, and that’s what she does

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=129&v=ZgZfD3JogT8&feature=emb_logo

And, to stick to the piano, I’d suggest that that’s what Stockhausen does in the wonderful Klavierstück 13

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMpiXLN8XZ8

(I’m listening to Kagel’s Der Schall as I type this - it’s just what the doctor ordered! There’s a wonderful moment when this crazy cuckoo starts to do its stuff. The guys at DG must have been on the acid when they decided to release this as an LP!)

Thanks for these links - I shall enjoy listening to them later.

[jayne lee wilson]

That’s an interesting thought!



I think he means the artificiality of the circumstances. Here’s my first shot at an exegesis

The meta-personal style of the genre would be something like what Beethoven does in a slow movement - he basically uses musical tricks to mesmerise the listener, lull the listener into believing a sort of expressive effusion, and make the listener forget for the movement that he’s in fact listening go a technician press keys on a piano. A Beethoven sonata is, in some sense, a lie - the performer is not in fact feeling what’s being expressed (thank God) and for all we know the composer wasn’t either. These ideas have been around since Brecht.

Some composers underline the artificiality of expression of performance by directing the musicians to do absurd and unexpected things. I’ve never actually seen a performance of, for example, Kagel’s Der Schall or Acoustica, but my guess is that that’s what he does. On the other hand I have seen Jennifer Walsh’s music in performance, and that’s what she does

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=129&v=ZgZfD3JogT8&feature=emb_logo

And, to stick to the piano, I’d suggest that that’s what Stockhausen does in the wonderful Klavierstück 13

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMpiXLN8XZ8

(I’m listening to Kagel’s Der Schall as I type this - it’s just what the doctor ordered! There’s a wonderful moment when this crazy cuckoo starts to do its stuff. The guys at DG must have been on the acid when they decided to release this as an LP!)

Some extraordinarily speculative claims here... a "technician pressing keys"?!
Certainly not remotely how Alfred Brendel (a great writer as well as a great musician, and profoundly intellectual) sees it....

"In “Form and Psychology in Beethoven’s Piano Sonatas,” a lecture that was originally published in Music and Musicians in 1971, he says that “although I find it necessary and refreshing to think about music, I am always conscious of the fact that feeling must remain the alpha and omega of a musician.” It’s the role of the performer, in other words, to both interpret the music and convince the audience of its immediacy and relevance".

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2018/08/the-writer-who-makes-perfect-sense-of-classical-music/566039/

Those Beethoven sonatas, the slow movements especially, have given this listener some of her most profound experiences, told her some of the most profound emotional truths, in her life. Spoken to me in my darkest hours.

"For all we know the composer wasn't [feeling whats being expressed] either" ??!!
What about his inscription on the Missa Solemnis: "from the heart - may it go to the heart" ?
Or his heading to the great OP.132 adagio;
"Holy song of thanksgiving of a convalescent to the Deity"....

So many such examples....

[Mandryka]

Some extraordinarily speculative claims here... a "technician pressing keys"?!
Certainly not remotely how Alfred Brendel (a great writer as well as a great musician, and profoundly intellectual) sees it....

[I]"In “Form and Psychology in Beethoven’s Piano Sonatas,” a lecture that was originally published in Music and Musicians in 1971, he says that “although I find it necessary and refreshing to think about music, I am always conscious of the fact that feeling must remain the alpha and omega of a musician.” It’s the role of the performer, in other words, to both interpret the music and convince the audience of its immediacy and relevance".

That's like saying that the role of the performer is to both interpret the music and mislead the audience about its immediacy. I'm not sure what to say about relevance by the way. Probably I think you should substitute "entertainment value" for "relevance."

Those Beethoven sonatas, the slow movements especially, have given this listener some of her most profound experiences, told her some of the most profound emotional truths, in her life. Spoken to me in my darkest hours.
[I]
.

wonderful

"For all we know the composer wasn't [feeling whats being expressed] either" ??!!
What about his inscription on the Missa Solemnis: "from the heart - may it go to the heart" ?
Or his heading to the great OP.132 adagio;
"Holy song of thanksgiving of a convalescent to the Deity"....

He was lying for marketing reasons, or even deceiving himself. These are both realistic possibilities, people do it all the time. And especially someone who's trying to make some money, as Beethoven was from his music, will be keen to manage his public image.

[jayne lee wilson]

That's like saying that the role of the performer is to both interpret the music and mislead the audience about its immediacy. I'm not sure what to say about relevance by the way. Probably I think you should substitute "entertainment value" for "relevance."




wonderful



He was lying for marketing reasons, or even deceiving himself. These are both realistic possibilities, people do it all the time. And especially someone who's trying to make some money, as Beethoven was from his music, will be keen to manage his public image.

First - you overlook that I quoted Brendel himself in my first paragraph, so perhaps you should ask him about substituting "entertainment value" for "relevance". How on Earth can you read his intention "to mislead the audience" from what he actually said? Is your second-guessing founded upon some extraordinary psychic gift?

By “immediacy and relevance” he simply means getting the emotional message across, as he interprets it, in the live moment, according to his own perception and ability. “Entertainment value” is an appallingly reductive vulgarisation of such musical and artistic intention.

Second, how can you find my experience of Beethoven "wonderful" if all I am doing (according to you) is believing his lies? Your reaction might more suitably be one of contempt.

Finally, your last comment about Beethoven's lying self-deception, where you assume some privileged access to his long-deceased, but always private (except where he himself reveals it) inner life, and the also-assumed cynical treatment of his "public image" is so breathtakingly arrogant, cynical and self-deceiving in itself as to leave me quite speechless.

But if its “entertainment value” you want, I suggest you switch on the Eurovision Song Contest, “playing now”….

[Richard Barrett]

Ah, like Aaron Cassidy I suppose. I've been really enjoying the music he's put on soundcloud, a quartet for example.

Wieland is much more concerned with his compositions having a structural shape than Aaron, whose pieces generally start, do what they do for a while, and then stop. Wieland is more interested in the sonic and expressive potential of structure. This idea of disassembling the actions that make up instrumentalism derives from the music of the late Klaus K Hübler (not to be confused with Klaus Huber!) and especially his 3rd string quartet, which indeed had a strong effect on me when I first heard it (in 1984!), although personally I feel that this is a limiting way to proceed unless it's followed by a recombination of the elements into some kind of "new instrument" whose repertoire is coextensive with the composition in question. Otherwise every disassembly of a particular instrument or combination of instruments is going more or less to resemble every other, being so to speak a high-entropy phenomenon.

Returning to piano music, I would mention Richard Emsley (b 1951) whose recent work is mostly for piano. Here's a relatively extended example I find very engaging:

https://soundcloud.com/richard-emsley/for-piano-13

[Mandryka]

I listen to Emsley’s CD often, not so much the piano music, but rather the piece called The Juniper Tree. I shall certainly listen to that soundcloud piece.

I can’t find Hubler’s 3rd quartet in a recording with bearable sound quality. I’m rather fond of at least some things by Aaron Cassidy so I’m quite keen to explore. It’s strange how in a good performance the music can sound almost spiritual (when you’re in the mood of course!) Same for Lachenmenn’s quartets IMO (i.e. when Arditti play.)

There’s a lot of good things happening in English music at the moment.

Back to piano - I have been loving the sound of the Pleyel on this puppy - and the recording location seems to have fabulous acoustics.

[Bella Kemp]

It seems that most of this thread is devoted to piano music, but I wonder how many of us feel an intimate relationship with our own instrument? Mine is an upright Weber, about a hundred years old, with a rich tone and several lower notes that can never quite be tuned. It suffers much under my playing - I bashed out a Beethoven sonata a day during the first lockdown, but try to start most days with a little Bach or Schubert. I play extremely badly but my dear piano never complains and I would never trade it in for a better instrument. Dare I say I think of it as a friend?

[Serial_Apologist]

It seems that most of this thread is devoted to piano music, but I wonder how many of us feel an intimate relationship with our own instrument? Mine is an upright Weber, about a hundred years old, with a rich tone and several lower notes that can never quite be tuned. It suffers much under my playing - I bashed out a Beethoven sonata a day during the first lockdown, but try to start most days with a little Bach or Schubert. I play extremely badly but my dear piano never complains and I would never trade it in for a better instrument. Dare I say I think of it as a friend?

My mother was a fine pianist, specialising I think you could say in the Romantic repertoire: Schumann, Mendelssohn, Chopin, Brahms, Liszt. She had broadcast on BBC radio back in the 1930s. My father acquired a fine, black lacquered upright for her to play, and later, when we moved out of London, a boudoir Bluthner of 1930s vintage, for which our lounge was extended onto what had been the loggia. Sadly she rarely played it, other than when visitors came. Equally sadly she tried teaching me from the age of 6, starting in London, but because she was impatient I was recalcitrant. After she was gone in 1985 I started applying my meagre jazz skills on it, but possibly subconsiously knowing she would have disapproved at my "desecratons" never made much progress - that is, until I acquired my own electronic piano some ten years ago. Had it not been for the 40 years in one place I would have transported it here, but it was too far gone and in need of complete refurbishment, but at least Bluthners generously took it back for a couple of grand

[Richard Barrett]

My mother was a fine pianist, specialising I think you could say in the Romantic repertoire: Schumann, Mendelssohn, Chopin, Brahms, Liszt. She had broadcast on BBC radio back in the 1930s. My father acquired a fine, black lacquered upright for her to play, and later, when we moved out of London, a boudoir Bluthner of 1930s vintage, for which our lounge was extended onto what had been the loggia.

Neither of my parents was what you'd call musical and we never had a piano at home (or even a record player for that matter, until they bought a portable one for me). I had a few lessons when I was 19 or so and otherwise taught myself a few basic things, but it's never been an instrument I feel a strong personal attachment to.

[ahinton]

Neither of my parents was what you'd call musical and we never had a piano at home (or even a record player for that matter, until they bought a portable one for me). I had a few lessons when I was 19 or so and otherwise taught myself a few basic things, but it's never been an instrument I feel a strong personal attachment to.

So how did you handle Tract and lost?...

[Joseph K]

Neither of my parents was what you'd call musical and we never had a piano at home (or even a record player for that matter, until they bought a portable one for me). I had a few lessons when I was 19 or so and otherwise taught myself a few basic things, but it's never been an instrument I feel a strong personal attachment to.

My parents are like that, and we've never had a piano at home.

Though I have felt some kind of attraction to the instrument and its capabilities compared to the guitar, to the extent of not even taking my guitar with me to Bangor for the third year of my music degree, telling myself I'd spend the time practising one of the pianos available in the Music School practice rooms. I don't think I was conscious at the time how much I missed having the guitar around, being able to play even just a bit!

Anyway, fast-forward over a decade later and I now have a keyboard which I use to study Harmony and Counterpoint (a keyboard being of course necessary for these disciplines).

[Serial_Apologist]

My parents are like that, and we've never had a piano at home.

Though I have felt some kind of attraction to the instrument and its capabilities compared to the guitar, to the extent of not even taking my guitar with me to Bangor for the third year of my music degree, telling myself I'd spend the time practising one of the pianos available in the Music School practice rooms. I don't think I was conscious at the time how much I missed having the guitar around, being able to play even just a bit!

Anyway, fast-forward over a decade later and I now have a keyboard which I use to study Harmony and Counterpoint (a keyboard being of course necessary for these disciplines).

Reading your post and Richard's, I feel incredibly fortunate to have had parents who were both musical, in their different ways. My grandfather, who was an antiquarian and ran an antiques business from the 1920s to his death in 1968, seems to have been quite culturally aware: his wife was a gifted painter, an admirer of Bonnard; he had a great appreciation of Japanese art and ancient culture - something which then skipped a generation! - and would take my dad and his sister to concerts at the Albert Hall, Henry Wood Hall, and opera at Covent Garden. At 11 - this would have been in 1919 - he was taken to see the Ballets Russes, under Diaghilev, perform "Petrushka" and "The Firebird", presumably at Sadlers Wells - the most thrilling theatrical experience of his life, he would always maintain. My mother told me that she had never enjoyed her pianistic gifts, which I find terribly sad - once she manifested them as a child her middle class-aspiring household used her as a family showcase; I may not be much good on the joanna but at least I derive huge pleasure from trying to play it, and am at last beginning to enjoy what I hear in my own playing!

[Boilk]

...to the extent of not even taking my guitar with me to Bangor for the third year of my music degree...

Yikes, does that mean you knew and studied with Andrew Lewis (one of the most accomplished acousmatic composers in the UK/Europe)?

Anyway, fast-forward over a decade later and I now have a keyboard which I use to study Harmony and Counterpoint (a keyboard being of course necessary for these disciplines).

To an extent yes, but avoiding a keyboard might well result in a more original approach to harmony. For example, I think one of the main reasons Mr. Holdsworth crafted such a distinctive harmonic syntax (confounding even fellow professional guitarists) was due to his having been self-taught and never consulting any theoretical texts or sitting at the keyboard. The length of his fingers and where they gravitated to on the fretboard makes for some rather 'unorthodox' stretching on the keyboard, but thankfully beautiful chords/progressions.

[Serial_Apologist]

Yikes, does that mean you knew and studied with Andrew Lewis (one of the most accomplished acousmatic composers in the UK/Europe)?



To an extent yes, but avoiding a keyboard might well result in a more original approach to harmony. For example, I think one of the main reasons Mr. Holdsworth crafted such a distinctive harmonic syntax (confounding even fellow professional guitarists) was due to his having been self-taught and never consulting any theoretical texts or sitting at the keyboard. The length of his fingers and where they gravitated to on the fretboard makes for some rather 'unorthodox' stretching on the keyboard, but thankfully beautiful chords/progressions.

I was reminded, this morning, when listening to COTW, of the size of the American jazz pianist Mary Lou Williams's hands - large enough not just to span an open tenth with the left hand - which I can, just about, but also with the right hand - which is too great a stretch for me. One interesting question perhaps worth considering is, how great musicians manage to make up for physical shortcomings of this sort? Watching Keith Tippett - one of the most virtuosic of pianists in the world of jazz - the first thing one notes was the smallness of his hands.