There is still hope, brother ....

[LMcD]

While I've long admired and enjoyed many of the later compositions of, for example, Britten and Shostakovich, I still struggle with quite a lot of 'classical' music composed after, say, 1945. This is doubtless due at least in part to the fact that I'm not musically trained and don't always know what to listen out for. However, certain works and composers strike a chord (boom! boom!) on first hearing and I return to them, and investigate further, in the hope of increasing both my enjoyment and understanding. I'm not sure what, if anything, these composers and their works have in common, but they include Alun Hoddinott, William Mathias and Peter Sculthorpe, who have now been joined by Robert Saxton, whose Concerto for Orchestra I've just heard for the first time. It manages to create a sound world which I find both thrilling and fascinating. Yet other composers - Boulez and Birtwistle for example - make no impression at all.
I shall persevere in the hope that the light becomes stronger!

[Pulcinella]

While I've long admired and enjoyed many of the later compositions of, for example, Britten and Shostakovich, I still struggle with quite a lot of 'classical' music composed after, say, 1945. This is doubtless due at least in part to the fact that I'm not musically trained and don't always know what to listen out for. However, certain works and composers strike a chord (boom! boom!) on first hearing and I return to them, and investigate further, in the hope of increasing both my enjoyment and understanding. I'm not sure what, if anything, these composers and their works have in common, but they include Alun Hoddinott, William Mathias and Peter Sculthorpe, who have now been joined by Robert Saxton, whose Concerto for Orchestra I've just heard for the first time. It manages to create a sound world which I find both thrilling and fascinating. Yet other composers - Boulez and Birtwistle for example - make no impression at all.
I shall persevere in the hope that the light becomes stronger!

And I thought, despite your indifference to the royals, that this was going to be a comment about Harry and William!


This must be from the Saxton CD you picked up on your recent charity shop trawl, so it looks as if the CD (although an EMI Angel one) is the same as I have in the EMI British composers series.
Good to hear that you found the Concerto for orchestra of interest.

[Quarky]

While I've long admired and enjoyed many of the later compositions of, for example, Britten and Shostakovich, I still struggle with quite a lot of 'classical' music composed after, say, 1945. This is doubtless due at least in part to the fact that I'm not musically trained and don't always know what to listen out for. However, certain works and composers strike a chord (boom! boom!) on first hearing and I return to them, and investigate further, in the hope of increasing both my enjoyment and understanding. I'm not sure what, if anything, these composers and their works have in common, but they include Alun Hoddinott, William Mathias and Peter Sculthorpe, who have now been joined by Robert Saxton, whose Concerto for Orchestra I've just heard for the first time. It manages to create a sound world which I find both thrilling and fascinating. Yet other composers - Boulez and Birtwistle for example - make no impression at all.
I shall persevere in the hope that the light becomes stronger!

IMHO, a classical music training may get in the way of appreciating much post 1945 music - music concrete, electronic music for example. (That's why I gave up on music Exams).

I was going to post on the subject of Schoenberg's fantasia for Violin and Piano Op. 47, which was played last week on Lunchtime Concert, sandwiched between Mozart and Beethoven (I must listen again).

If one can avoid getting stuck on the "funny" notes, there is a very refreshing musical logic to be appreciated.

[oddoneout]

I think there comes a point when you just accept that certain music doesn't "do it" for you, and in my case I've stopped feeling that the fault lies with me when that happens. If I've given it a hearing or three and still don't get anywhere then there is plenty else out there that does or might appeal better. Knowing all the reasons why something is considered "good" doesn't help if you just don't like it - same as food. I heard the Schoenberg, and thought it a fine performance - I could see why it went down well - but as music it did nothing for me so as this wasn't a first hearing I think I can now park it as they say.
Performing a work rather than just listening may change opinion - but that can work both ways as I've discovered!
As long as I don't put up barriers ("no modern music") then I can live with not liking works that many others consider to be essential/excellent. In the same way I take advantage(in normal times) of the art exhibitions of all types available in the city; some of the work I will like from the off, some might grow on me, some I can see why it is thought good but it doesn't appeal/speak to me.

[LMcD]

Regarding the Robert Saxton: as has happened with other CDs, when I inserted it into the 'tower' (or whatever it's called) of my PC, a different cover image popped up - I'm assuming it's the one on the original release, one of those EMI Classics on which the list of contents irritatingly blocks out part of the cover image. The EMI Angel CD is presumably the re-release - or is it t'other way round?
I shall give the Schoenberg Fantasia a listen. I really enjoy Schoenberg's 'reductions' of Strauss waltzes, and can listen to all of Verklaerte Nacht without suffering a violent reaction of the sort that the Siegfried Idyll invariably triggers.

[Pulcinella]

Regarding the Robert Saxton: as has happened with other CDs, when I inserted it into the 'tower' (or whatever it's called) of my PC, a different cover image popped up - I'm assuming it's the one on the original release, one of those EMI Classics on which the list of contents irritatingly blocks out part of the cover image. The EMI Angel CD is presumably the re-release - or is it t'other way round?
I shall give the Schoenberg Fantasia a listen. I really enjoy Schoenberg's 'reductions' of Strauss waltzes, and can listen to all of Verklaerte Nacht without suffering a violent reaction of the sort that the Siegfried Idyll invariably triggers.

Yes: the Saxton seems to have had two incarnations (maybe more):

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Robert-Saxton-Concerto-orchestra-etc/dp/B00000DNMF

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Robert-Saxton-THE-CIRCLES-OF-LIGHT-CONCERTO-FOR-ORCHESTRA-etc-cd/363303198812?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&campid=5337487966&customid=&toolid=10001

[Quarky]

I shall give the Schoenberg Fantasia a listen. I really enjoy Schoenberg's 'reductions' of Strauss waltzes, and can listen to all of Verklaerte Nacht without suffering a violent reaction of the sort that the Siegfried Idyll invariably triggers.

So much depends on the individual performance, IMV. The Lunchtime Concert version was excellent, but the Menuhin/ Gould performance available on YouTube -- my partner categorised it as "screechy music".

[Serial_Apologist]

So much depends on the individual performance, IMV. The Lunchtime Concert version was excellent, but the Menuhin/ Gould performance available on YouTube -- my partner categorised it as "screechy music".

I didn't understand Schoenberg when I first heard his music - probably a work from his full maturity. Then I head Verklarte Nacht, understood it straight away, and came to the conclusion that a composer of such fine music must surely have continued to develop his ideas - he hadn't "lost the plot", and it was up to me to persevere with it for the music to offer up its message to me. And that is more or less the way I've proceeded since. I was introduced to "modern art" by an exhibition of Picasso in Aix while on a school transfer with a French family, aged 15. The pictures were arranged in chronological order so one could start with his more orthodox early works and then progress. Finding parallels in maybe more accessible contemporaneous art forms can be helpful. I agree with Elliot Carter when he said that he found the music of his own time easier to get to understand than that of centuries earlier, since those making it by definition must be more attuned to the present age than someone living in the 18th century. Oh, and you needn't be academically trained: I was and remain an autodidact in musical matters.

[gradus]

I've come to like things I was indifferent to and become less attracted to music that previously enthused me. I'm still waiting for the penny to drop with Janacek and I'm not sure that Pierrot Lunaire will ever open up to me, ditto Bob Dylan and plenty more besides - tant pis.
I have never bothered with learning what I'm supposed to hear or listen to, it either gets through to me or it doesn't.

[Serial_Apologist]

I've come to like things I was indifferent to and become less attracted to music that previously enthused me. I'm still waiting for the penny to drop with Janacek and I'm not sure that Pierrot Lunaire will ever open up to me, ditto Bob Dylan and plenty more besides - tant pis.
I have never bothered with learning what I'm supposed to hear or listen to, it either gets through to me or it doesn't.

Try "The Cunning Little Vixen" suite - it's where Janacek comes closest to Debussy, in terms of harmony and orchestral colour, and could just be the point of entry you could do with... if you happen to like Debussy, of course! As for "Pierrot Lunaire", I came by a second hand LP of Cleo Laine reciting it in what is actually, believe it or not, a rather good English translation of the poems. The British jazz bass player-turned-composer Daryl Runswick worked with John Dankworth and Cleo for several years, including around that time (1974), and when I told him I had this record he asked to borrow it, and transfer it to CD. In the event he made two CD copies and sent me one of them. Unfortunately he omitted to clean up the record before re-recording it - a practice I have since followed with my own old recordings - so the copy I have has all the clicks and track jumps that were on it when I lent it to him!

[Bryn]

Try "The Cunning Little Vixen" suite - it's where Janacek comes closest to Debussy, in terms of harmony and orchestral colour, and could just be the point of entry you could do with... if you happen to like Debussy, of course! As for "Pierrot Lunaire", I came by a second hand LP of Cleo Laine reciting it in what is actually, believe it or not, a rather good English translation of the poems. The British jazz bass player-turned-composer Daryl Runswick worked with John Dankworth and Cleo for several years, including around that time (1974), and when I told him I had this record he asked to borrow it, and transfer it to CD. In the event he made two CD copies and sent me one of them. Unfortunately he omitted to clean up the record before re-recording it - a practice I have since followed with my own old recordings - so the copy I have has all the clicks and track jumps that were on it when I lent it to him!

[Richard Barrett]

I'm not going to try and persuade anyone to like anything they don't like, or to enumerate my various blind spots, having done more than enough of both for the moment, just to say that for me one of the things that makes life worth living is still being able to find my way to new discoveries in all areas of music. (Including as a musician, come to think of it.) I was going to say I'm not musically trained either, but most of a lifetime spent involved with music in one way or another, including listening, is musical training as I understand the word, especially if you retain an inquisitive approach to new and/or unfamiliar and/or difficult-seeming things.

[LMcD]

I'm not going to try and persuade anyone to like anything they don't like, or to enumerate my various blind spots, having done more than enough of both for the moment, just to say that for me one of the things that makes life worth living is still being able to find my way to new discoveries in all areas of music. (Including as a musician, come to think of it.) I was going to say I'm not musically trained either, but most of a lifetime spent involved with music in one way or another, including listening, is musical training as I understand the word, especially if you retain an inquisitive approach to new and/or unfamiliar and/or difficult-seeming things.

Curiosity may have killed the cat, but I firmly believe that it will help me to keep going, especially where music is concerned!

[Dave2002]

I've come to like things I was indifferent to and become less attracted to music that previously enthused me. I'm still waiting for the penny to drop with Janacek and I'm not sure that Pierrot Lunaire will ever open up to me, ditto Bob Dylan and plenty more besides - tant pis.
I have never bothered with learning what I'm supposed to hear or listen to, it either gets through to me or it doesn't.

I suggest the following for Janacek:
Sinfonietta
Tara Bulba
Glagolitic Mass
String quartets

For Schoenberg try:
Chamber symphony 1 - example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37JV7Pdj-ic
Verklärte Nacht

These are not really representative of some of his later work, though.
I have to say that I've not listened to Pierrot Lunaire for a long while - probably not one of my favourite pieces either.
Schoenberg's reworkings of some other music are really good - such as his reworking of Brahms G minor piano quartet.

I agree it's not worth beating your head against music if you really don't get into it, though I did eventually get to like Glazunov's symphonies by that approach.
I haven't AFAIK actually managed to persuade others to like Glazunov, so in that respect I'm with Richard B in not trying to push others too much.

[oddoneout]

I'm not going to try and persuade anyone to like anything they don't like, or to enumerate my various blind spots, having done more than enough of both for the moment, just to say that for me one of the things that makes life worth living is still being able to find my way to new discoveries in all areas of music. (Including as a musician, come to think of it.) I was going to say I'm not musically trained either, but most of a lifetime spent involved with music in one way or another, including listening, is musical training as I understand the word, especially if you retain an inquisitive approach to new and/or unfamiliar and/or difficult-seeming things.

I so agree, and not just music. There is so much out there to find and with which to enrich one's life, that it really doesn't matter if something doesn't "click", despite what others' exhortations may try to convince you.