James Levine (1943-2021)

[ahinton]

Reading comments from Americans, it seems quite a few people over there are prepared to overlook his ‘extra-curricular’ activities and focus instead on his ‘lifetime’s work’ of improving the Met orchestra.

There IS and indeed can be no "overlooking" of his "extra-curricular activities" other than by those who choose to stick the heads in the sand by trying to pretend that they either didn't take place or were of little or no harmful consequence; the deeply unpleasant facts are well known and, unlike in the case of Mr Savile, many of them have been known for a good number of years rather than coming to light only following his death. The Met, in its handling of him, would seem to have quite a lot for which to answer.

General assessment of his work as a conductor seems to be that he was skilled, efficient and generally gifted though not perhaps as inspiring as the best of his kind. Though comparisons may be odious, I cannot help but recall, for example, Jessye Norman's magnificent performance of Erwartung the he conducted (which was very fine) in the light of her performance of it in London conducted by Boulez which was vastly more revealing, especially from the orchestra from which I had never previously heard as clearly so much subtle detail in that elaborate score...

[Barbirollians]

I agree it is difficult to divorce his behaviour from his musicianship. One of the grimmest things about those who sexually abuse others is how plausible they are and how much they may be liked and admired by those who they do not abuse.

I have very few of his recordings - mostly of him accompanying others such as Lynn Harrell in the Dvorak and Perlman in Mozart.

[Ein Heldenleben]

There IS and indeed can be no "overlooking" of his "extra-curricular activities" other than by those who choose to stick the heads in the sand by trying to pretend that they either didn't take place or were of little or no harmful consequence; the deeply unpleasant facts are well known and, unlike in the case of Mr Savile, many of them have been known for a good number of years rather than coming to light only following his death. The Met, in its handling of him, would seem to have quite a lot for which to answer.

General assessment of his work as a conductor seems to be that he was skilled, efficient and generally gifted though not perhaps as inspiring as the best of his kind. Though comparisons may be odious, I cannot help but recall, for example, Jessye Norman's magnificent performance of Erwartung the he conducted (which was very fine) in the light of her performance of it in London conducted by Boulez which was vastly more revealing, especially from the orchestra from which I had never previously heard as clearly so much subtle detail in that elaborate score...

Very good points. I wonder whether , from reading the Times obit, the real problem lies with the power and authority that is vested in highly talented arts supremos (not just arts - could be any organisation) . The checks and balances weren’t there at the Met - such is their power - to garner rave reviews , to draw in business no one dares challenge or question . There was a similar problem with both Weinstein and Savile - though the latter was very much more sinister . I think that’s changing but how confident can we be that there are not similar figures around now ?

[Katzelmacher]

I know of at least one similarly prominent American classical musician who has been ‘getting away with it’ for decades, principally on the festival circuit. These people are far better-protected than rock musicians.

[Richard Barrett]

I'm not sure that currently we can divide the two as the link is far too strong. As an alleged sexual predator clearly he would have used his elevated position in the music world as the hook for his grooming.

Yes, and he wouldn't have had that elevated position (or been kept in it for so many years) if he hadn't had some exceptional talent to begin with. I can't say I remember any of the recordings of his I might have heard, but even if I did find them unforgettable, it wouldn't be the end of the world not to hear any of them again. Anyone who abuses their artistic talent in this kind of way doesn't deserve to be listened to. I've seen it many times in the somewhat less public circles where my own work as a musician is situated. Zero tolerance is called for.

[ahinton]

Anyone who abuses their artistic talent in this kind of way doesn't deserve to be listened to. I've seen it many times in the somewhat less public circles where my own work as a musician is situated. Zero tolerance is called for.

I am very sorry to hear that. Agreed re zero tolerance.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I notice the title of this thread has been changed, and not by me.

Changed by me. We agreed on this style some time ago.

[Barbirollians]

Should we apply the same standards to composers and dead conductors as to their personal conduct ?

For example - Goodall an out and out fascist and Holocaust denier has been raved about on here and people happily buy records and go to performances of arch anti-semite Wagner and wife murderer Gesualdo for example.

[Bryn]

Should we apply the same standards to composers and dead conductors as to their personal conduct ?

For example - Goodall an out and out fascist and Holocaust denier has been raved about on here and people happily buy records and go to performances of arch anti-semite Wagner and wife murderer Gesualdo for example.

With respect to Gesualdo and, to a lesser extent, Wagner, different times and their very different human social mores. Levine operated in an era when such behaviour, if publically acknowledged, would be seen as extremely reprehensible, to say the least. I have far better things to do than even consider giving time to listening to a Goodall recording.

[gurnemanz]

Uncomfortable about it but reluctant to disown Dawn Upshaw's lovely album of Debussy mélodies, expertly accompanied by JL

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Forgotten-Songs-Upshaw-sings-Debussy/dp/B000024I8B/ref=mp_s_a_1_7?dchild=1&keywords=Dawn+Upshaw&qid=1616105658&s=music&sr=1-7

[Petrushka]

Should we apply the same standards to composers and dead conductors as to their personal conduct ?

For example - Goodall an out and out fascist and Holocaust denier has been raved about on here and people happily buy records and go to performances of arch anti-semite Wagner and wife murderer Gesualdo for example.

Anyone is perfectly free to apply whatever standards they want, to which ever artists they want, for any reason they want. The list of disreputable artists is a long one and few escape censure of some sort.

[Katzelmacher]

Should we apply the same standards to composers and dead conductors as to their personal conduct ?

For example - Goodall an out and out fascist and Holocaust denier has been raved about on here and people happily buy records and go to performances of arch anti-semite Wagner and wife murderer Gesualdo for example.

I’m in the fortunate position of not being a Goodall admirer but when I read his biography (‘Reggie’ by his good friend and close associate John Lucas) I was shocked at the deep, ingrained nature of his fascism and far-right opinions (‘People should stay in their own countries’, snarled Goodall, when being driven down an offensively multicultural London street).

There are mitigating factors with Wagner’s anti-Semitism (he didn’t hate Jews so much that he refused to give them important jobs at Bayreuth) and the fact that certain 19th century anti-Semites could hardly have foreseen the tragic consequences their attitudes were to have.

Sidebar: Chopin was a far worse anti-Semite than Wagner, apparently, but he never set forth his views on paper.

[richardfinegold]

I’m in the fortunate position of not being a Goodall admirer but when I read his biography (‘Reggie’ by his good friend and close associate John Lucas) I was shocked at the deep, ingrained nature of his fascism and far-right opinions (‘People should stay in their own countries’, snarled Goodall, when being driven down an offensively multicultural London street).

There are mitigating factors with Wagner’s anti-Semitism (he didn’t hate Jews so much that he refused to give them important jobs at Bayreuth) and the fact that certain 19th century anti-Semites could hardly have foreseen the tragic consequences their attitudes were to have.

Sidebar: Chopin was a far worse anti-Semite than Wagner, apparently, but he never set forth his views on paper.

There is something about taking the time and energy to write a book about why one finds classes of people repugnant

[Dave2002]

I’m in the fortunate position of not being a Goodall admirer but when I read his biography (‘Reggie’ by his good friend and close associate John Lucas) I was shocked at the deep, ingrained nature of his fascism and far-right opinions (‘People should stay in their own countries’, snarled Goodall, when being driven down an offensively multicultural London street).

There are mitigating factors with Wagner’s anti-Semitism (he didn’t hate Jews so much that he refused to give them important jobs at Bayreuth) and the fact that certain 19th century anti-Semites could hardly have foreseen the tragic consequences their attitudes were to have.

Sidebar: Chopin was a far worse anti-Semite than Wagner, apparently, but he never set forth his views on paper.

i read recently that it wasn't the people that Wagner disliked, but some parts of the system they were culturally embedded in. I don't know if that is true, but it seems that he tried to persuade some Jewish colleagues - possibly even friends - to convert to other religions - presumably Christianity.

[Richard Barrett]

i read recently that it wasn't the people that Wagner disliked, but some parts of the system they were culturally embedded in. I don't know if that is true, but it seems that he tried to persuade some Jewish colleagues - possibly even friends - to convert to other religions - presumably Christianity.

If there is to be a discussion of Wagner's antisemitism I suggest that those participating should at least attempt to inform themselves about it.

Back on topic, here's an article I recommend people read: https://kennethwoods.net/blog1/2021/...kg_G_-ymy6rp2I

which begins: "James Levine was not a great man with a single tragic flaw. He was an almost completely horrible person, with a single, tragic talent."