Crossing vocal lines?

[Dave2002]

In this piece - Pase el agua - see http://www.solovoces.com/sites/defau...uras/sv075.pdf in bars 9 and 10 the top two vocal parts cross over - as written in the score here. Is this normal, and would most singers be happy with that? The clue is the way the stems go up and down.

If transcribed for keyboards there would probably be no need to keep the voice parts separate, so keyboard and other players might not notice this.

[Pulcinella]

Surely that's doing nothing other than pointing out/highlighting where the main melody lies (stems up), even though sometimes the harmony lies above it.

PS: I'm pretty sure that some well-known hymns/carols have examples such as that in the harmony, but I can't think of one just now.
Not likely to throw any singers, who will be following their own line regardless of who's above or below them, especially if they are carrying the tune.

[cloughie]

In this piece - Pase el agua - see http://www.solovoces.com/sites/defau...uras/sv075.pdf in bars 9 and 10 the top two vocal parts cross over - as written in the score here. Is this normal, and would most singers be happy with that? The clue is the way the stems go up and down.

If transcribed for keyboards there would probably be no need to keep the voice parts separate, so kayboard and other players might not notice this.

Quite common in MVC arrangements but I often wonder why and often it is because the arranger is a brass band man or one that is unfamiliar with the ranges of the four voices.

[ardcarp]

Some gradgrind harmony teachers used to splurge red marks when a student would (for instance) let the tenor go higher than the alto. This is sheer rubbish of course, and many instances can be found in Bach.

If we're talking about 'traditional' harmony or part-writing, it is usual for the bass line to be given to the ...er...basses. And if a tune is being harmonised, it's usual to let the treble part have it without being usurped by a stray alto, which is what seems to be happening in the example in #1.
This is such a naive piece(deliberately naif?) I can't pass judgement!

However a composer or arranger nowadays may do whatever he/she likes! This doesn't mean they lack a knowledge of traditional practices or styles.

[oddoneout]

I've encountered this occasionally in music I have sung in choir, when the vocal parts are not written out separately. A gear change is necessary to remember/observe the actual rather than automatic relationship of part/place on the stave. Where it coincides with page turns or a lot of speedy black dots on the page there can be problems... I try and memorise such sections to avoid the eye holding things up, but some do struggle to remember what's what in the heat of the concert moment.

[Dave2002]

This is such a naive piece(deliberately naif?) I can't pass judgement!

It is a medieval piece - 16th Century Iberian I think.

I've encountered this occasionally in music I have sung in choir, when the vocal parts are not written out separately. A gear change is necessary to remember/observe the actual rather than automatic relationship of part/place on the stave. Where it coincides with page turns or a lot of speedy black dots on the page there can be problems... I try and memorise such sections to avoid the eye holding things up, but some do struggle to remember what's what in the heat of the concert moment.

Presumably if singing from scores - and you can write in then you can pencil in or even mark in red or a colour of your choice - but that's not good if the parts are hired.
If you have a while to practice you can photocopy the parts and put in the marks yourself - though that can (sadly and stupidly ... IMO) also lead to copyright and performing rights actions.

I know of a group which copied some parts so that they could attach scissor cut out parts to their originals for fast page turnovers - and they had paid for the original parts - but some sharp eyed individual noticed and complained, so now they have to buy two copies to do the cut and paste to suit their playing.

Some players may be switching to using electronic copies with iPads or similar partly for this reason. I'm guessing that singing from computer tablets may not be something that at least amateur choirs do.

[oddoneout]

It is a medieval piece - 16th Century Iberian I think.



Presumably if singing from scores - and you can write in then you can pencil in or even mark in red or a colour of your choice - but that's not good if the parts are hired.
If you have a while to practice you can photocopy the parts and put in the marks yourself - though that can (sadly and stupidly ... IMO) also lead to copyright and performing rights actions.

I know of a group which copied some parts so that they could attach scissor cut out parts to their originals for fast page turnovers - and they had paid for the original parts - but some sharp eyed individual noticed and complained, so now they have to buy two copies to do the cut and paste to suit their playing.

Some players may be switching to using electronic copies with iPads or similar partly for this reason. I'm guessing that singing from computer tablets may not be something that at least amateur choirs do.

The photocopying shouldn't be an issue if it is for 'personal study purposes' and destroyed post-use? Some choir members do annotate their copies(pencil for hire, marking of choice for personal) for this and other similar instances; I tend not to as I find it causes even more potential holdup while I decipher my over-writing!

[ardcarp]

There's a few 'problems' outlined above which I don't see as problems! Can anyone explain?

It is a medieval piece - 16th Century Iberian I think.

...and doesn't it look awful in 'computer' typeset !

[Dave2002]

There's a few 'problems' outlined above which I don't see as problems! Can anyone explain?

I expect that some people won't see problems, others might not notice, while some people could be surprised.

Anyway - FWIW here's a rather boisterous rendition of the particular piece referred to earlier - though of course do we really "know" that it should be performed like that.

https://youtu.be/EAL36dauebs

Seems that it may date back several centuries, and it is still claimed as a Galician folk song - but here it seems to have a provenance from Hungary!

Pase el agoa,
ma Julieta dama,
pase el agoa
venite vous a moy.

Ju me'n anay en un vergel,
tres rosetas fui coller;
ma Julieta, dama,
pase el agoa
venite vous a moy.
_______________________________________
Come across the water,
my lady Julieta,
Come across the water,
come to me.

I went into a garden,
to pluck three roses;
My lady Julioleta,
come to me.

It's from Cancionero de Palacio which is a collection of Spanish renaissance music, though often cited as Galician.

[vinteuil]

It's from Cancionero de Palacio which is a collection of Spanish renaissance music, though often cited as Galician.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_(Spain)

not to be confused with

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_(Eastern_Europe)

.

[Richard Barrett]

The Cancionero de Palacio is an extensive musical manuscript compiled in Spain mostly in the late 15th century. In music before the 16th century, what later became traditional vocal ranges hadn't yet been standardised and so part-crossing is more common. It's extremely common in 14th century polyphony for example. This is not as far as I can see a modern arrangement but a not very nice looking modern transcription of the original.

[Dave2002]

Indeed, the original manuscripts can be found here - but they aren't indexed so not easy to decipher - https://imslp.org/wiki/Cancionero_de_Palacio_(Various)

There are also other edited "interpretations" of the manuscripts, which put bar lines and time signatures in, but those were not in the originals.

[Serial_Apologist]

Having voices from different registers "crossing over" or even swapping roles might add timbral interest, surely, whether those voices be vocal or instrumental?

[Richard Barrett]

Having voices from different registers "crossing over" or even swapping roles might add timbral interest, surely, whether those voices be vocal or instrumental?

And of course in the 15th century not much distinction was made between vocal and instrumental parts. But "timbral interest" is missing the point really, as is much of this discussion: it's just a matter of projecting later tastes and conventions back into a period when they didn't apply. Until the late 14th century, to give another example, the major third wasn't generally considered a consonant interval by composers.

[ardcarp]

Until the late 14th century, to give another example, the major third wasn't generally considered a consonant interval by composers.

As think I mentioned on the EM thread , we hear too little of John Dunstable whose influence on European music (especially in relation to thirds and sixths) was considerable.