Erich Kleiber

[Barbirollians]

Been listening to Erich kleiber’s extraordinary,musical and visceral recordings with the Paris orchestra of Tchaikovsky 4 and 6 on Testament ( also available on Eloquence.

I know that his son was quite brilliant but there are few recordings by EK that do not make my hair stand on end - his Decca Beethoven, the remarkable cologne Schubert 9 and the superb 1930s Strauss records. I suspect but for his brave principled stand against the Nazis and his untimely death he would be as feted as his son .

[richardfinegold]

The older Kleiber was a great Conductor and perhaps a better Human Being. His Anti Fascist credentials were beyond reproach. He was sought after as a Guest Conductor and as an Orchestra builder. He recorded extensively albeit in less than optimal sound—the “Decca Sound” myth seems to have bypassed him, IMO—perhaps that is one factor why his son’s recordings are better prized. In the end, I think that Carlos perpetuated a myth that was fueled by his irascibility

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The older Kleiber was a great Conductor and perhaps a better Human Being. His Anti Fascist credentials were beyond reproach. He was sought after as a Guest Conductor and as an Orchestra builder. He recorded extensively albeit in less than optimal sound—the “Decca Sound” myth seems to have bypassed him, IMO—perhaps that is one factor why his son’s recordings are better prized. In the end, I think that Carlos perpetuated a myth that was fueled by his irascibility

The Decca sound myth? I think not. Decca was streets ahead of most other record companies in the 50s, 60s and 70s, but they sometimes had off days. One mishap was the VPO/Kleiber Eroica; despite being a superlative performance in every way, it was deemed below technical standard by the company, so was not released immediately. It may have been an experimental stereo recording that emerged with the right channel missing.

[cloughie]

The Decca sound myth? I think not. Decca was streets ahead of most other record companies in the 50s, 60s and 70s, but they sometimes had off days. One mishap was the VPO/Kleiber Eroica; despite being a superlative performance in every way, it was deemed below technical standard by the company, so was not released immediately. It may have been an experimental stereo recording that emerged with the right channel missing.

As Erich died in January he pre-dated the opportunity to take advantage of the Stereo revolution and we can only dream of what a EK Beethoven cycle would have been with a similar soundstage to the Ansermet set of the era.

[gradus]

I was unaware of his anti-Nazi stand but always saw him as one of the pantheon of great conductors.

Out of interest why 'Decca Myth', Richard? There's nothing mythical about the technical achievements of the Decca producers and engineers as any number of recordings testify

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

As Erich died in January he pre-dated the opportunity to take advantage of the Stereo revolution and we can only dream of what a EK Beethoven cycle would have been with a similar soundstage to the Ansermet set of the era.

Yes, but experiments in stereo were taking place in the early 50s (and earlier).

[richardfinegold]

I was unaware of his anti-Nazi stand but always saw him as one of the pantheon of great conductors.

Out of interest why 'Decca Myth', Richard? There's nothing mythical about the technical achievements of the Decca producers and engineers as any number of recordings testify

The Kleiber recordings that I remember hearing had a dry acoustic with no particular clarity that some of the best early 1950s recordings can offer as a compensation for being in mono. I remember a Beethoven Symphony that was particularly muddy. For comparison, try Mercury recordings of the same vintage, or even the Columbia’s of Szell, Ormandy, and Stravinsky. As I said, Decca may have done fine work elsewhere at the time, but E.K. wasn’t a particular beneficiary. Carlos, of course, suffers no such deficiencies in his recordings, and as the O.P. Had raised the issue as to why Kleiber fils is better remembered than Kleiber pere, I was offering recording quality as a contributing factor.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I was unaware of his anti-Nazi stand but always saw him as one of the pantheon of great conductors.

Out of interest why 'Decca Myth', Richard? There's nothing mythical about the technical achievements of the Decca producers and engineers as any number of recordings testify

Without opening up a whole can of worms (though I am ) there is (or was) a ‘heated debate’ within the recording industry about those classic Decca recordings. EMI and BBC engineers often criticised those recordings for what’s called the hole -in the middle .Because of the Mike array used by Decca ( I think it was called the Decca tree) some thought there was a gap in the audio sound stage more or less in the middle with , in effect too much of the sound audibly left and right in the stereo image.

[Bryn]

Without opening up a whole can of worms (though I am ) there is (or was) a ‘heated debate’ within the recording industry about those classic Decca recordings. EMI and BBC engineers often criticised those recordings for what’s called the hole -in the middle .Because of the Mike array used by Decca ( I think it was called the Decca tree) some thought there was a gap in the audio sound stage more or less in the middle with , in effect too much of the sound audibly left and right in the stereo image.

Eh? The principal aspect of the Decca Tree was/is that is used/s three microphones, one left, on right and a middle one to be sure to avoid 'hole in the middle'.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Eh? The principal aspect of the Decca Tree was/is that is used/s three microphones, one left, on right and a middle one to be sure to avoid 'hole in the middle'.

Yes that was their ‘fix’ but some thought the third limb of the “tree” didn’t solve the problem . The only test is what you hear . Try comparing the Solti ring say with a classic EMI symphonic recording of the sixties on speakers . Obvs they need to be set up correctly ...
For what it’s worth been listening to the Rattle Mahler 2 and Barbirolli Mahler 5 both EMI recordings using ( I suspect) a co-incident pair and maybe spot mikes and the stereo postioning is uncanny . You wouldn’t get it like that in a concert hall...

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Without opening up a whole can of worms (though I am ) there is (or was) a ‘heated debate’ within the recording industry about those classic Decca recordings. EMI and BBC engineers often criticised those recordings for what’s called the hole -in the middle .Because of the Mike array used by Decca ( I think it was called the Decca tree) some thought there was a gap in the audio sound stage more or less in the middle with , in effect too much of the sound audibly left and right in the stereo image.

It’s interesting that Decca had the central microphone in general usage, making a vast number of superlative recordings, yet went on to create Decca Phase 4, the epitome of “cold nose stereo”.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Returning to Erich Kleiber, his Marriage of Figaro was the first I had on LP and the sound was very good to my ears.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Returning to Erich Kleiber, his Marriage of Figaro was the first I had on LP and the sound was very good to my ears.

That is still my “benchmark” Figaro. Everything else sounds sluggish in comparison. The attack he gets on the strings ...

[Ein Heldenleben]

It’s interesting that Decca had the central microphone in general usage, making a vast number of superlative recordings, yet went on to create Decca Phase 4, the epitome of “cold nose stereo”.

There was a lot of experimentation in those days with every company coming up with differing Mike arrays. There’s quite a good entry on the Decca tree in wiki where one of the engineers does admit that though it sounded excellent you can lose localisation of instruments . So , for example , when the brass come in in the Dawn orchestral sequence in Act 1 Gotterdamerung in the Decca recording they seem to fill the whole sonic stage . It could be that’s how they were placed in the studio - but I doubt it. In EMI’s Mahler 2 with Rattle and Mahler 5 with Barbirolli you hear distinctly the placements of horns and trumpets/ trombones . So then it comes down to recording philosophy - should a recording reflect what you would have heard in the concert hall or is it an artefact that “improves” reality ?
Just to complicate matters I bet at Bayreuth with the orchestral cover you can’t locate the brass if you are sitting centre stalls!

[gradus]

There was a lot of experimentation in those days with every company coming up with differing Mike arrays. There’s quite a good entry on the Decca tree in wiki where one of the engineers does admit that though it sounded excellent you can lose localisation of instruments . So , for example , when the brass come in in the Dawn orchestral sequence in Act 1 Gotterdamerung in the Decca recording they seem to fill the whole sonic stage . It could be that’s how they were placed in the studio - but I doubt it. In EMI’s Mahler 2 with Rattle and Mahler 5 with Barbirolli you hear distinctly the placements of horns and trumpets/ trombones . So then it comes down to recording philosophy - should a recording reflect what you would have heard in the concert hall or is it an artefact that “improves” reality ?
Just to complicate matters I bet at Bayreuth with the orchestral cover you can’t locate the brass if you are sitting centre stalls!

The video of the Decca Gotterdamerung recording on Youtube should resolve the matter of brass section placement, it also reveals that the harps were placed behind Solti and that members of the string section stood to play. Presumably John Culshaw had his reasons.