Comparing digital pianos

[gradus]

Fascinating, thanks for the explanation.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Sorry to ask a question, as a very uninformed person on the merits of pianos. Isn't reproduction of Bass frequencies by speakers something of a challenge - IIIRC a large bass cone is needed, really, if the best bass reproduction is needed. Or perhaps the best, most neutral sounding headphones are being used?

I presume Yamaha, for example, should be able to produce a decent amplification/dac to the the speakers/headphones......

You would be amazed how good the bass sounds on the Avantigrand that Ein Alpensinfonie owns . I played one at the Yamaha store a few years ago . I think it’s sampled from a Yamaha and Bosendorfer grand . There’s a similar problem though with acoustic pianos . The bass on my 1920’s Bluthner mid sized grand is way better than a modern upright like a Yamaha U1.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

You would be amazed how good the bass sounds on the Avantigrand that Ein Alpensinfonie owns . I played one at the Yamaha store a few years ago . I think it’s sampled from a Yamaha and Bosendorfer grand . There’s a similar problem though with acoustic pianos . The bass on my 1920’s Bluthner mid sized grand is way better than a modern upright like a Yamaha U1.

Yes, but the AvantGrand has an array of speakers under the lid that would be the envy some of the best hi-fi systems.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Yes, but the AvantGrand has an array of speakers under the lid that would be the envy some of the best hi-fi systems.

Agreed - I played the whole range of the Yamaha hybrids - amazing how the sound improved as you went up the range . But even the entry level one was pretty good...
But the full size concert grand on the first floor - that was something else . Just needed £120,000 ....
There was also a tremendous Bosendorfer upright ...

[ardcarp]

Fascinating thoughts in #15 Dave. Just one thing from a very un-techie person:

A typical modern piano will have three strings for the bass notes

Just looked inside our 7' grand. There aren't 3 strings to every bass note! Top end of the piano extending down to, say, the top tenor register has 3 strings per note. The 'baritone' region has two copper-covered strings per note, while the bottom bass has just one rather fat copper-covered string per note. I guess this is the same for all decent-sized grands?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Fascinating thoughts in #15 Dave. Just one thing from a very un-techie person:



Just looked inside our 7' grand. There aren't 3 strings to every bass note! Top end of the piano extending down to, say, the top tenor register has 3 strings per note. The 'baritone' region has two copper-covered strings per note, while the bottom bass has just one rather fat copper-covered string per note. I guess this is the same for all decent-sized grands?

Spot on!

[Dave2002]

Spot on!

Oops! I beleve this is the case - see https://www.yamaha.com/en/musical_in...hanism004.html

I'm too lazy right now to go over and check our own piano.

No - had second thoughts. From A0 to A1 just one string then above that up to D#2 there are 2 strings, then the remainder have three strings. I may have to check this one more time though - to be sure of the cross-over points. I think this is correct. Perhaps different makers use different cross over patterns.

That'll learn me not to check based on evidence which is available !!!

[Dave2002]

Hopefully not all the details I provided in the preceding posts are incorrect!

Here is a comparison of two Yamaha digital pianos - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yiV...ature=youtu.be

One is a reasonably good portable - probably a mid range - affordable - the p125 at prices from around £500 to £750 depending on stand and accessories, while the other, the PS 515 is about three times the price, and very probably better. The PS 515 also makes use of Bösendorfer samples as well as trom a Yamaha CFX grand.

Cheaper models than these generally seem to be considered beginner models - and indeed some reviewers also consider the p125 to be a beginner model. I suppose some beginners are more advanced than others. Depends also how picky the reviewers are, and how good they are at playing themselves.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Cheaper models than these generally seem to be considered beginner models - and indeed some reviewers also consider the p125 to be a beginner model. I suppose some beginners are more advanced than others. Depends also how picky the reviewers are, and how good they are at playing themselves.

This opens up a whole can of worms. A good pianist can make the best of the worst of pianos. A beginner cannot. I’m no beginner, and I have made some dreadful village hall pianos sound acceptable. A beginner would have struggled. The Yamaha P125 is easily good enough for a beginner, but a more advanced player would understand its limitations and adapt accordingly. It wouldn’t adequate for a virtuoso concert performance, but not many pianos are in that league.

[Dave2002]

This opens up a whole can of worms. A good pianist can make the best of the worst of pianos. A beginner cannot. I’m no beginner, and I have made some dreadful village hall pianos sound acceptable. A beginner would have struggled. The Yamaha P125 is easily good enough for a beginner, but a more advanced player would understand its limitations and adapt accordingly. It wouldn’t adequate for a virtuoso concert performance, but not many pianos are in that league.

I agree about virtuoso concert performances, but not everyone is a virtuoso, and even virtuosos have been learners at some stage.

One significant advantage of having one of the better digital pianos might be that they can be played and yet listened to via headphones, thus impacting less on others who might be sharing one's dwelling place. Parents in flats with children might really like that, right now - even if an occasional 15 minutes of practice on a regular piano can be tolerated. That would also enable the musical education of those children - even if they did eventually decide that they'd rather play some headbanging music rather than Clementi.

Even adults might like to have that feature, for several reasons. Firstly, some adult learners are reticent about playing - because they are often quite aware of the mistakes they make and embarrassed by those, and don't want others to hear. Secondly, they might want to play or practice when other people in their house are asleep, or working, or otherwise likely to be disturbed by the sound of a piano - even if played well. So there may be merits in having a digital piano even for people who also have a regular piano, and not all of those will be gigging. Cheap keyboard/synthesisers do also have the ability to work with headphones, but they don't have anything like the feel of a digital piano, either in action or tone - and even if that "feel" is really only a poor approximation to a "real" piano. Digital pianos may provide an experience which is a lot better than not having it.

[ardcarp]

One significant advantage of having one of the better digital pianos might be that they can be played and yet listened to via headphones, thus impacting less on others who might be sharing one's dwelling place

This might give you the best of both worlds:

https://uk.yamaha.com/en/products/mu...ano/index.html

It apparently is a normal acoustic piano, but with a deployable lever that will stop the hammers just short of hitting the strings; and there is some electronic wizaardry that lets you hear via headphones.

Not quite sure what 'storied' means in their blurb!

[Dave2002]

This might give you the best of both worlds:

It apparently is a normal acoustic piano, but with a deployable lever that will stop the hammers just short of hitting the strings; and there is some electronic wizaardry that lets you hear via headphones.

Not quite sure what 'storied' means in their blurb!

Yes - but those are significantly more expensive - see https://www.google.com/search?client...a+silent+piano

Also they probably take up more space, and you could buy a Kawai piano (without the silent feature) for less - though arguably different/maybe not so good.
See http://www.lochnesspianos.co.uk/new-pianos and hover over the pictures.

I'm not really sure what the market for any of these things is. If adults are already able to play, they may be prepared to pay a lot for a good or very good piano. If they are adult learners and beginning, they may be reluctant to spend large amounts. For children, unless they obviously show interest and desire at an early age, many parents would find even buying a cheap digital piano a financial strain and difficult to justify.

Sure - by the time I went to secondary school and later I knew people who had grand pianos in their houses, and before that upright pianos were more common in "ordinary" houses during my grandparents' lifetime, but I think that the markets for all these instruments have changed.

Briefly returning back to the current "situation", there are many people "trapped" in small flats, with several occupants all getting under each other's feet, and not everyone can afford even a modest musical instrument. Some kids who might have had access to instruments at school won't even have that opportunity at the present time. Flat dwelling might also have become even more stressful over the last year, as noise from neighbours, or concerns about annoying neighbours, might just add to the strain.

[Old Grumpy]

We have a piano conundrum. Both offspring musical (both have first class degrees in music from their respective universities). Each learned their piano skills on a 1922 Chappell upright that has been in my family since the early 1970s. I learnt on it up to grade 3 and then gave up. I can now knock out a tune with one hand, but nothing more.

Children have left home and we are downsizing. Question is whether to keep the piano or not. I only discovered recently that the piano is downtuned one semitone. On questioning our tuner says it was that way when he first encountered it in the late 1980s. When asked if it could be tuned to pitch he said it might pull the pegs out.

One of my possible retirement projects is to take up the piano again. I have the use of very acceptable (to me) digital piano/keyboard (Casio Privia PX-350M) bought for offspring 2 who is now settled in Canada.

A digital piano is very attractive for smaller house. I do some (very amateur) choral singing - a piano at pitch is a great aid to practice.

A piano technician I spoke to suggested it would be perfectly possible to repitch our upright and it was only a lazy tuner who would suggest otherwise. Who is correct? Is the Chappell upright worth hanging onto?


OG

[Ein Heldenleben]

We have a piano conundrum. Both offspring musical (both have first class degrees in music from their respective universities). Each learned their piano skills on a 1922 Chappell upright that has been in my family since the early 1970s. I learnt on it up to grade 3 and then gave up. I can now knock out a tune with one hand, but nothing more.

Children have left home and we are downsizing. Question is whether to keep the piano or not. I only discovered recently that the piano is downtuned one semitone. On questioning our tuner says it was that way when he first encountered it in the late 1980s. When asked if it could be tuned to pitch he said it might pull the pegs out.

One of my possible retirement projects is to take up the piano again. I have the use of very acceptable (to me) digital piano/keyboard (Casio Privia PX-350M) bought for offspring 2 who is now settled in Canada.

A digital piano is very attractive for smaller house. I do some (very amateur) choral singing - a piano at pitch is a great aid to practice.

A piano technician I spoke to suggested it would be perfectly possible to repitch our upright and it was only a lazy tuner who would suggest otherwise. Who is correct? Is the Chappell upright worth hanging onto?


OG

The 1922 Chappell upright is almost certainly not worth hanging onto . We had two of similar vintage and no local sellers were remotely interested in either.

[Dave2002]

The 1922 Chappell upright is almost certainly not worth hanging onto . We had two of similar vintage and no local sellers were remotely interested in either.

I think the same is true of our two instruments, though one has to work out whether the instrument(s) you have are any good to you, or can be brought into a state which would work for you.
Piano shops and tuners are in business. They are not interested in restoring or adjusting older instruments in general, unless they can make money out of them.

We have a similar issue re one of our cars - which hasn't done very many miles over its 13 or so years, but it's nice to drive, particularly in the summer when the roof can be lowered.
It costs money to keep it - insure it and tax it, but we would get very little for it if we tried to sell it. It's probably far too good to scrap. However, if it were in poor condition, and not at all "good" - I'd have no hesitation in scrapping it.

So, returning to pianos - anyone with a piano they like might think about repairing/restoring it, but it may be a lot more expensive than buying a new digital one, or a new or second hand acoustic one.

In that respect the shops and tuners are correct - it's not worth it for them, and possibly not for you either.

Re the piano technician versus the "lazy tuner", the conventional wisdom is that it might be possible to raise the pitch - a semitone is quite a bit - but would take several sessions over a long time. Each tuning session would cost you, so you could work out the cost of doing that over say 2 years. If the action and other things aren't OK, then it might indeed be simpler to replace it. You could replace it now, and save that time.

There is an element of personal judgement there - do you like the piano or not? If it takes up space and doesn't fit in with your decor you might want to lose it.

If a piano had some real historical merit, then it might be of interest to some specialists. I think that probably a 1922 Chappell is not going to be of interest, but who knows - maybe in 50 years it would be!