Reading and writing music - leger lines - stratospheric or subterranean

[Dave2002]

At what point do most performers give up reading leger lines above or below staves?
Or to put it another way, do most find it hard once the number of leger lines above exceeds (say) three?

When writing - when should the use of 8va notation above or below kick in?
It probably depends a bit on context.

I recently found myself looking at a chord F B flat E flat starting on the third leger line above the stave, and thought that was a bit tough.
Maybe pianists and some string players are used to this.

[Roslynmuse]

I don't think we ever 'give up' but we may resort to such cheating methods as writing the occasional letter name in at 5 or 6 leger (or ledger) lines. Some composers are quite helpful and do this anyway for an odd note, especially below the stave in the bass clef. It's slightly different if there's a long low (or high) passage and then it may be simpler to notate using 8va. Chords are different as pianists tend to see the notes as an all in one shape (a word rather than individual letters, if you like) so if the lowest note is at 3 ledger lines then it's not an unreasonable ask. If too many ledger lines are dispensed with then we are in the realm of not just 8va but 15va signs and they are a real pain. Like anything, the more you read them the more straightforward they are, although the smaller the font the more likely they are to blur and shake (but that's my eyesight rather than the lines themselves). Oh, and above the bass stave or below the treble stave (in piano music), just change clef.

[Dave2002]

Thanks for that. Flute players can probably cope up to the high B or C, though often the music doesn't jump around so much so there is a line to follow.
Of course piccolo music is an otave higher still, but is usually written an octave down - with or without the 8va or 15va notation.

Re changing clef - yes for below the treble clef, but what about below the bass clef? How far down can one reasonably go?
I think the lowest note is A0 - 6 lines below the bass clef. Maybe pianists just get used to that.

Not sure about organists though - how are the really deep notes written - the ones which cause the whole room to throb? I'd not thought of that before - just assumed that it would be by some register/stop thing. I should look at the score for Saint-Saën's 3rd symphony perhaps.

[Pulcinella]

Thanks for that. Flute players can probably cope up to the high B or C, though often the music doesn't jump around so much so there is a line to follow.
Of course piccolo music is an otave higher still, but is usually written an octave down - with or without the 8va or 15va notation.

Re changing clef - yes for below the treble clef, but what about below the bass clef? How far down can one reasonably go?
I think the lowest note is A0 - 6 lines below the bass clef. Maybe pianists just get used to that.

Not sure about organists though - how are the really deep notes written - the ones which cause the whole room to throb? I'd not thought of that before - just assumed that it would be by some register/stop thing. I should look at the score for Saint-Saën's 3rd symphony perhaps.

Section 2.1 here (Keyboards) might help here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedal_keyboard

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I used to struggle when reading leger lines on the flute. Then I learnt a trick that solved it. The third leger line above the treble stave is E. The player then imagines this line to be the bottom line of the treble clef; the higher notes are then much easier to grasp.

(Piccolo music is always written an octave lower.)

[Ein Heldenleben]

Read somewhere that Liszt invented the 8va to replace ledger lines - pretty well essential in his pieces ..

[Dave2002]

Section 2.1 here (Keyboards) might help here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedal_keyboard

Thanks. I looked at the Saint-Saën's 3rd symphony score, and didn't spot anything which was obviously very low - so I guess there are traditions/conventions amongst organists about how to play the lowest notes - what stops and registers to set them to. There are some PED markings - which I think must refer to using the Pedal board.

[Serial_Apologist]

Any pitch above or below the staves surely goes beyond the ledger domain.

[Mario]

I used to struggle when reading leger lines on the flute. Then I learnt a trick that solved it. The third leger line above the treble stave is E. The player then imagines this line to be the bottom line of the treble clef; the higher notes are then much easier to grasp.

(Piccolo music is always written an octave lower.)

This is really, really useful EA.

Many thanks

Mario

[Dave2002]

Any pitch above or below the staves surely goes beyond the ledger domain.

Magical

[Richard Barrett]

Whether performers find it difficult to get their heads around large numbers of leger lines depends on which instrument they play. Octave signs for above and below are common in piano music, but violinists with high notes and tuba players with low ones have no problem with large numbers of leger lines. Woodwind instruments that aren't transposed by octaves never really have enough leger lines to worry about - anyone who's a good enough player to play those notes ought to be a good enough reader to read them! On the other hand, octave signs are useful in full scores for space-saving reasons.

[Serial_Apologist]

Whether performers find it difficult to get their heads around large numbers of leger lines depends on which instrument they play. Octave signs for above and below are common in piano music, but violinists with high notes and tuba players with low ones have no problem with large numbers of leger lines. Woodwind instruments that aren't transposed by octaves never really have enough leger lines to worry about - anyone who's a good enough player to play those notes ought to be a good enough reader to read them! On the other hand, octave signs are useful in full scores for space-saving reasons.

Octave signs are an obstacle race for the sight reader!

[Dave2002]

Octave signs are an obstacle race for the sight reader!

I suspected as much, but are they worse than having leger lines piled up like skyscrapers?

[Jonathan]

Just write it out with 8va or 15 (if in the right hand) and 8 if in the base!

[Roslynmuse]

Just write it out with 8va or 15 (if in the right hand) and 8 if in the base!

Please - no 15va!!!

(I've just been given a [piano] score to learn full of them and it's a right pain...)