Rattle To Leave LSO?

[Ein Heldenleben]

Let's have a 'Who's A Better Conductor Than Simon Rattle?' thread - it sounds as though there are plenty of candidates who qualify for consideration. My first choice would probably be Timothy West - marvellous stick technique combined with deep knowledge of the music of Delius.

Many moons ago I had the privilege of making a White Lady cocktail (as a sound effect in a radio studio ) for Tim West in his role as Beecham . He’s a great bloke - charming even when the cocktail shaker filled with water and stones came apart in my hands and spilt dirty water on his shoes....

[ahinton]

For some reason I find it rather difficult to interpret certain reservations about the alleged shortcomings in Simon Rattle's promotion of contemporary (and recent) music as other than originating at least in part in tacitly implied criticism of his involvement in the particular contemporary works that he has conducted - but what would I know?...

[Leinster Lass]

Woteva, as the young people say. Simon Rattle is not really someone I have strong feelings about either way, to tell the truth.

You could have fooled us!

[jayne lee wilson]

I think that one, just one, of the things that Rattle represents is the culture of the celebrity, which has both potential upsides and downside, as perhaps this thread has demonstrated.
In the main though, in my opinion, that kind of culture has a tendency to be rather unhealthy for the business concerned,whatever it might be, leading as it does, to rather narrow focus.

Reading Nick Kenyon's excellent highly detailed book ("Simon Rattle: From Birmingham to Berlin"), and trawling through the Berlin DCH features and interviews (many of which are free) may serve as a useful corrective here....do you know about his outreach work with Berlin youngsters and schools?

Not to mention Rattle's concert archive with the Berlin Phil itself, but it seems only I ever bother to, you know, actually research it or listen to it......
Music starts with listening, inhabits it, and returns to it. In my beginning is my end.

I recall a Boulez quote: "Debussy said, penetrate to the naked flesh of emotion. I say, penetrate to the naked flesh of evidence....."
....which I leave upon this very stimulating thread for everyone's reflection....

[cloughie]

Many moons ago I had the privilege of making a White Lady cocktail (as a sound effect in a radio studio ) for Tim West in his role as Beecham . He’s a great bloke - charming even when the cocktail shaker filled with water and stones came apart in my hands and spilt dirty water on his shoes....

...and you looked like you’d wash your hands in a muddy stream. At least you probably refrained from saying ‘Go West, young man’!

[teamsaint]

Reading Nick Kenyon's excellent highly detailed book ("Simon Rattle: From Birmingham to Berlin"), and trawling through the Berlin DCH features and interviews (many of which are free) may serve as a useful corrective here....do you know about his outreach work with Berlin youngsters and schools?

Not to mention Rattle's concert archive with the Berlin Phil itself, but it seems only I ever bother to, you know, actually research it or listen to it......
Music starts with listening, inhabits it, and returns to it. In my beginning is my end.

I recall a Boulez quote: "Debussy said, penetrate to the naked flesh of emotion. I say, penetrate to the naked flesh of evidence....."
....which I leave upon this very stimulating thread for everyone's reflection....

I really don't see what any of that has to do with my rather general comments about the culture of celebrity.

( Outreach work is common among all kinds of mere mortal musicians, EG the Philharmonia).

I really should have known better than to make any comment at all on this thread.

[Ein Heldenleben]

For some reason I find it rather difficult to interpret certain reservations about the alleged shortcomings in Simon Rattle's promotion of contemporary (and recent) music as other than originating at least in part in tacitly implied criticism of his involvement in the particular contemporary works that he has conducted - but what would I know?...

As a general point (as I don’t want to comment on Rattle’s commitment to contemporary music as I know nothing about it ) I wouldn’t mind betting that he has throughout his career faced quite a lot of battles scheduling any contemporary music at all. There would be resistance from promoters for a start. “Why can’t you do Mahler 6 instead, Simon ?”

[Petrushka]

As a general point (as I don’t want to comment on Rattle’s commitment to contemporary music as I know nothing about it ) I wouldn’t mind betting that he has throughout his career faced quite a lot of battles scheduling any contemporary music at all. There would be resistance from promoters for a start. “Why can’t you do Mahler 6 instead, Simon ?”

Very likely, but then he would precede the Mahler 6 with a work by Boulez or Birtwistle. He knew the Mahler would draw a big crowd so Boulez or Birtwistle were guaranteed a full house too.

[ardcarp]

Apropos of very little, Mrs A and I saw Simon Rattle, looking extremely young, as assistant conductor to the now defunct Bournemouth Sinfonietta. This must have been in the very early 1970s. We were rather surprised that he was given Strauss's 4 Last Songs to conduct (can't remember the soloist) but were equally surprised at the excellent job he made of directing an old man's valedictory work. We thought he'd go far...and he did.

I gather he has co-signed a letter pointing out the difficulties UK artists will have on future European tours, involving separate visas for each country they visit.

[jayne lee wilson]

I really don't see what any of that has to do with my rather general comments about the culture of celebrity.

( Outreach work is common among all kinds of mere mortal musicians, EG the Philharmonia).

I really should have known better than to make any comment at all on this thread.

"

Your comment was scarcely general; you said:

"I think that one, just one, of the things that Rattle represents is the culture of the celebrity"
Leave that sort of thing to the aforementioned Daily Mail gossip column... and it would be wise not to downplay outreach work, however "celebrated" its contributors are.

All those of us who have admired Rattle for many things, for many decades, are arguing for is...... fairness.

[Pulcinella]

Apropos of very little, Mrs A and I saw Simon Rattle, looking extremely young, as assistant conductor to the now defunct Bournemouth Sinfonietta. This must have been in the very early 1970s. We were rather surprised that he was given Strauss's 4 Last Songs to conduct (can't remember the soloist) but were equally surprised at the excellent job he made of directing an old man's valedictory work. We thought he'd go far...and he did.

I gather he has co-signed a letter pointing out the difficulties UK artists will have on future European tours, involving separate visas for each country they visit.

Yes he has.
I'm not able to share letters, but here's a link to the accompanying article:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/more-than-100-music-stars-attack-brexit-deal-687znfk66?shareToken=1f89e6fe67cb166ac46a8f5b4f5b46a3

And here's the Thunderer comment, by Richard Morrison:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/government-cant-solve-musicians-brexit-problems-f92qjxnj8?shareToken=dfafe40337a643a5068a35be019b108f

[Leinster Lass]

Reading Nick Kenyon's excellent highly detailed book ("Simon Rattle: From Birmingham to Berlin"), and trawling through the Berlin DCH features and interviews (many of which are free) may serve as a useful corrective here....do you know about his outreach work with Berlin youngsters and schools?

Not to mention Rattle's concert archive with the Berlin Phil itself, but it seems only I ever bother to, you know, actually research it or listen to it......
Music starts with listening, inhabits it, and returns to it. In my beginning is my end.

I recall a Boulez quote: "Debussy said, penetrate to the naked flesh of emotion. I say, penetrate to the naked flesh of evidence....."
....which I leave upon this very stimulating thread for everyone's reflection....

Let's face it, Jayne - some people are determined to do the poor chap down. Not to worry - WE know how good he is!

[Pulcinella]

Apropos of very little, Mrs A and I saw Simon Rattle, looking extremely young, as assistant conductor to the now defunct Bournemouth Sinfonietta. This must have been in the very early 1970s. We were rather surprised that he was given Strauss's 4 Last Songs to conduct (can't remember the soloist) but were equally surprised at the excellent job he made of directing an old man's valedictory work. We thought he'd go far...and he did.

I gather he has co-signed a letter pointing out the difficulties UK artists will have on future European tours, involving separate visas for each country they visit.

I first met him about then too, when he was invited to conduct the college orchestra (we had a contact via the Bournemouth Sinfonietta).
I forget the programme now (I think that a Haydn symphony was on the bill) but I am sure that it included what was a firm college favourite (as one of the members was a horn player and he invited his University Orchestra chums along to join in the fun): Mehul's La chasse du jeune Henri.
He was delayed, and I set the rehearsal going rather than keep the orchestra waiting.

Just think.....had anything happened to him I might have had to take over, and who knows where I would have ended up.

[teamsaint]

"

Your comment was scarcely general; you said:

"I think that one, just one, of the things that Rattle represents is the culture of the celebrity"
Leave that sort of thing to the aforementioned Daily Mail gossip column... and it would be wise not to downplay outreach work, however "celebrated" its contributors are.

All those of us who have admired Rattle for many things, for many decades, are arguing for is...... fairness.

Jayne, he is an example of a celebrity musician, but the point was about the the general nature of the star system, which , for me , he quite clearly is part of. That is not to comment on the quality of his work at all.

Who is downplaying outreach work ? Certainly not me, I was just pointing out that, valuable though his may be, other less exalted musicians do theirs too, with less public endorsement perhaps.

[Serial_Apologist]

Jayne, he is an example of a celebrity musician, but the point was about the the general nature of the star system, which , for me , he quite clearly is part of. That is not to comment on the quality of his work at all.

Who is downplaying outreach work ? Certainly not me, I was just pointing out that, valuable though his may be, other less exalted musicians do theirs too, with less public endorsement perhaps.

For some, the idea that the star system occasionally alights on someone of genuine worth to the world merits its justification. Freddie Mercury and David Bowie are other examples. We won't get beyond it until we mature enough to benefit from a system not dependent on maintaining the role model hero on a pedestal stage into so-called adulthood.