Rattle To Leave LSO?

[Simon Biazeck]

I first saw Rattle in 1987 with the CBSO (Berlioz Ov Beatrice & Benedict, Britten Sinfonia da Requiem and Mahler 1) and have attended scores of Rattle concerts since then in Birmingham and London with the CBSO, BPO and VPO and there has rarely been a duff one amongst them. However, I'm in no doubt that his Birmingham years were his finest with some fantastic programmes, particularly in the Towards the Millennium series. Foolish to have ever expected it, I know, but I do wish he'd stayed at Birmingham much as I wish Haitink had stayed at the Concertgebouw.

Whoever said that when you meet him Rattle is looking behind you to see if there is someone more interesting could not be more wrong. I've met him twice post-concert, he's extremely approachable, you can ask him anything and you'll get a proper answer, not some guff to fob you off. He's anything but the 'big maestro'.

I know many people like that, but no, as you say, not Sir Simon Rattle. I worked with him on Les Boréades (Rameau) in the Salzburg Festival many years ago - a huge job! - and he was so personable and approachable. He made everyone feel that they were on the same level and always had time to talk and genuinely! At one reh. Emanuelle Haïm (continuo) was off with Les Arts Florissants, so SR sat at the harpsichord and accompanied us reading from a full score! A class act.

SBz

[Simon B]

I lost count of the number of events conducted by SSR I've attended long ago. Between the CBSO & LSO years plus all those Proms with the BPO and VPO etc, since the 1990s it must be 100+. Although I have reservations about his way with a lot of more "standard" repertoire this hardly represents antipathy...

I've often found his work most compelling in things that are just slightly out of the mainstream, particularly big "events" and works that require a lot of rehearsal and technical skill to bring off convincingly. Now I come to think of it, quite a lot of the ones that stand out are more recent, and I don't think that's just the effect of fading memories.

E.g. Szymanowski's King Roger and Adams' Harmonielehre with the CBSO, Ligeti's Grand Macabre and the Pelléas & Mélisande with the LSO. If I had to choose the single most memorable of all it would probably be the Proms LSO Gurrelieder, also recently.

Who knows when/if anyone will be able to mount anything like any of those in the UK again?

Having had time to digest the news, and the further surely not coincidental matter of his taking German citizenship, I maintain that the greatest loss to the LSO and UK music will be of the influence, connections and cachet that he brought. Other musically excellent candidates will be available, but none with those other qualities.

[Richard Barrett]

He has done Turnage, Kyburz (Noesis), Adès and Haas (In Vain) of course

Exactly!

[Bert]

Exactly!

That's what I was thinking. Although I'm glad he did Nicholas Maw's Odyssey. But he didn't dig deeper than that, despite being young, modern and influential.

I don't think Rattle maintained a satisfactory level of consistency. I enjoyed a number of his concerts in Birmingham and he did a rather superb Nielsen set of concerts of his symphonies (I don't think he recorded a cycle). I attended a wonderful concert performance of Parsifal with The Rotterdam Philharmonic. He did an excellent job of gradually quickening the tempo as the singers started to flag! But then I attended some terrible BPO concerts, a Bruckner symphony, as I remember, paled in comparison to the concerts I attended with that marvellous orchestra conducted by Abbado and Haitink. A very dull Gurre-Lieder on EMI was a major disappointment and his Turangilila utterly unremarkable. I will say that I'll take his Mahler 2 and Mahler 9 ahead of all-comers. I found his latest Sibelius recordings a yawn and haven't revisited them since I bought them. Apparently he could be quite personable when he wanted to be.

In short, erratic and didn't fulfil his potential. I'm not unhappy that his departure will free up a space for younger talent.

[HighlandDougie]

That's what I was thinking. Although I'm glad he did Nicholas Maw's Odyssey. But he didn't dig deeper than that, despite being young, modern and influential.

I don't think Rattle maintained a satisfactory level of consistency. I enjoyed a number of his concerts in Birmingham and he did a rather superb Nielsen set of concerts of his symphonies (I don't think he recorded a cycle). I attended a wonderful concert performance of Parsifal with The Rotterdam Philharmonic. He did an excellent job of gradually quickening the tempo as the singers started to flag! But then I attended some terrible BPO concerts, a Bruckner symphony, as I remember, paled in comparison to the concerts I attended with that marvellous orchestra conducted by Abbado and Haitink. A very dull Gurre-Lieder on EMI was a major disappointment and his Turangilila utterly unremarkable. I will say that I'll take his Mahler 2 and Mahler 9 ahead of all-comers. I found his latest Sibelius recordings a yawn and haven't revisited them since I bought them. Apparently he could be quite personable when he wanted to be.

In short, erratic and didn't fulfil his potential. I'm not unhappy that his departure will free up a space for younger talent.

Ooh! As they would say in my native of West of Scotland, “That’s us telt, then”. So, erratic, unfulfilled and, “quite personable when he wanted to be”. So now we know. As I type, listening to Tippett’s ‘Rose Lake’, with SSR and the LSO. Wonderful.

[Richard Barrett]

listening to Tippett’s ‘Rose Lake’, with SSR and the LSO. Wonderful.

That's a brilliant performance to be sure. But as Bert and Makropulos and I have all said, it isn't that he can't do something special, it's that he's so variable. (His Szymanowski recordings are great too.) And I wish he could be bothered to extend his knowledge of late 20th and early 21st century music past a tiny number of "usual suspects". At least the BRSO has a real commitment to new work whether he's involved or not.

[Roslynmuse]

Mention has been made of that first recording of Mahler 10 from Bournemouth - and for me the fact that the surface of that recording wasn't perfect but that the commitment underneath it was so strong, was what made it special and what was missing in the remake. (I heard him pair that with Britten Sinfonia da Requiem at the Edinburgh Festival in 1983, marginally less gripping than the old LPs.) One of my favourite of Rattle's other CDs is the Ravel Ma mere l'Oye/ Sheherazade disc - maybe significant that this is music that does benefit from surface perfection. I haven't had the experience of as many live concerts as some on here but remember a stunning Mahler 6 and Jeux with the National Youth Orchestra in 1984 in Liverpool (repeated a day or two later at the Proms) - again, maybe the effort of getting youngsters to play such emotionally difficult music was what communicated so strongly then. Speaking of Liverpool, I had the impression that the RLPO didn't much like him and the last time I saw him with them - Nov 81, Berlioz Benvenuto Cellini Overture, Mozart K491 (Imogen Cooper) and Bartok Concerto for Orchestra - was, I think, the last time he was asked to conduct there apart from an item in a gala concert in 1987 which he shared with Groves, Janowski, Atherton and Weller. I met him post-concert when I was a student and he was very pleasant. More recently I saw the Mahler 2 he did at the RFH with the BPO (Feb 2015) - I was expecting to be blown away, but wasn't; like others on here I thought the RVW 5 at the Proms in 2020 was miraculous - but the rest of the programme rather less so.

[Petrushka]

Ooh! As they would say in my native of West of Scotland, “That’s us telt, then”. So, erratic, unfulfilled and, “quite personable when he wanted to be”. So now we know. As I type, listening to Tippett’s ‘Rose Lake’, with SSR and the LSO. Wonderful.

I was at that Rose Lake concert - as you say, wonderful!

My favourite CBSO/Rattle concert, though hard to choose amongst so many, was a 1989 Prom consisting of the Britten Sinfonia da Requiem and Mahler 7. Absolutely thrilling and that was the first time I met him, his father and first wife, Elise Ross after the concert.

My favourite BPO/Rattle concert was a 2012 Prom which featured the Webern 6, Schoenberg 5 and Berg 3 Orchestral Pieces, an extraordinary concert I'll not forget.

My favourite LSO/Rattle concert was the three great Stravinsky ballets, Firebird, Petrushka and Rite of Spring in one evening.

[HighlandDougie]

That's a brilliant performance to be sure. But as Bert and Makropulos and I have all said, it isn't that he can't do something special, it's that he's so variable. (His Szymanowski recordings are great too.) And I wish he could be bothered to extend his knowledge of late 20th and early 21st century music past a tiny number of "usual suspects". At least the BRSO has a real commitment to new work whether he's involved or not.

Yes, he’s variable but I’m struggling to think of any compelling orchestral conductor who doesn’t have ups and downs. And in Rattle’s case, I would aver that the ups significantly weigh the downs. Have you ever met him, Richard? Challenged him on his repertoire? I think that you might convince him. On the few occasions when I’ve met him, he’s always struck me as open to a convincing argument.

[Bert]

Ooh! As they would say in my native of West of Scotland, “That’s us telt, then”. So, erratic, unfulfilled and, “quite personable when he wanted to be”. So now we know. As I type, listening to Tippett’s ‘Rose Lake’, with SSR and the LSO. Wonderful.

It's only my view, my opinion. Based on my personal experience. It's not factual (although probably true )

[jayne lee wilson]

That's a brilliant performance to be sure. But as Bert and Makropulos and I have all said, it isn't that he can't do something special, it's that he's so variable. (His Szymanowski recordings are great too.) And I wish he could be bothered to extend his knowledge of late 20th and early 21st century music past a tiny number of "usual suspects". At least the BRSO has a real commitment to new work whether he's involved or not.

Well it takes time as I said, but going through the long, long list of what he has conducted in the DCH Archive reveals:

Anderson, Chin, Dean, Dove, Golijov, Grisey, Gruber, Harvey, Lachenmann, Lindberg, later on Rihm, Saariaho.... Dallapiccola and Corigliano, Ligeti and Lutoslawski from an earlier time as well.... (has no-one but me heard the devastating album of the Luto 2nd Symphony and the Piano Concerto? A Luto obsessive here, and believe me it ranks very high...)

That is by no means a compete list (there are 209 entries!).... take a look for yourself.....

***
As for Bruckner, Bert's memory seems not to be specific enough to recall which Rattle performance he found so unconvincing, but delving into the archive, Rattle only appears to have done 7-9 in Berlin (although there was a 4th on CD), several of which I heard. His performance of the latest SMPC 9th completion is remarkable, and his returns to it in concert after the CD release became even more convincing...he gave a good talk about that too, video in the DCH archive somewhere.
(Here....https://www.digitalconcerthall.com/en/concert/2516)

He takes his own very renewed and refreshing view, but you may not appreciate those insights if all you can do is say "oh, it isn't Haitink, it isn't Abbado"....
Well of course it isn't; why on Earth would anyone want it to be? And his LSO Live 6th, which I seem to be alone in knowing, is truly outstanding, and in excellent SACD sound too...does wonders for the less than ideal Bruckner acoustic of the Barbican. One of a very select group of great 6ths - a difficult piece to bring off.

[gurnemanz]

I was at that Rose Lake concert - as you say, wonderful!

My favourite CBSO/Rattle concert, though hard to choose amongst so many, was a 1989 Prom consisting of the Britten Sinfonia da Requiem and Mahler 7. Absolutely thrilling and that was the first time I met him, his father and first wife, Elise Ross after the concert.

My favourite BPO/Rattle concert was a 2012 Prom which featured the Webern 6, Schoenberg 5 and Berg 3 Orchestral Pieces, an extraordinary concert I'll not forget.

My favourite LSO/Rattle concert was the three great Stravinsky ballets, Firebird, Petrushka and Rite of Spring in one evening.

We have only attended two Rattle concerts. Both were Proms and both well worth turning up for.

1979 Three part sandwich:
1 Maxwell Davies, A Mirror of Whitening Light + Ravel Piano Concerto with Paul Crossley, London Sinfonietta
2 Javanese Gamelan Ensemble with dancers
3 Messiaen - Trois petites liturgies de la Présence Divine. Crossley again with Jeanne Loriiod.

2000 Parsifal

I'm grateful for two memorable evenings

[Leinster Lass]

That's what I was thinking. Although I'm glad he did Nicholas Maw's Odyssey. But he didn't dig deeper than that, despite being young, modern and influential.

I don't think Rattle maintained a satisfactory level of consistency. I enjoyed a number of his concerts in Birmingham and he did a rather superb Nielsen set of concerts of his symphonies (I don't think he recorded a cycle). I attended a wonderful concert performance of Parsifal with The Rotterdam Philharmonic. He did an excellent job of gradually quickening the tempo as the singers started to flag! But then I attended some terrible BPO concerts, a Bruckner symphony, as I remember, paled in comparison to the concerts I attended with that marvellous orchestra conducted by Abbado and Haitink. A very dull Gurre-Lieder on EMI was a major disappointment and his Turangilila utterly unremarkable. I will say that I'll take his Mahler 2 and Mahler 9 ahead of all-comers. I found his latest Sibelius recordings a yawn and haven't revisited them since I bought them. Apparently he could be quite personable when he wanted to be.

In short, erratic and didn't fulfil his potential. I'm not unhappy that his departure will free up a space for younger talent.

Which just goes to show what rotten judges of musical matters the Berlin Philharmonic so obviously are. I shall immediately delete his Beethoven cycle which I recently recorded off Sky Arts - how could I have been so blind as to think that it was even remotely satisfactory!

[Serial_Apologist]

[/B]

Which just goes to show what rotten judges of musical matters the Berlin Philharmonic so obviously are. I shall immediately delete his Beethoven cycle which I recently recorded off Sky Arts - how could I have been so blind as to think that it was even remotely satisfactory!

You sound pretty Rattled!

[Petrushka]

And his LSO Live 6th, which I seem to be alone in knowing, is truly outstanding, and in excellent SACD sound too.

Not at all! I have that disc and agree with your verdict. I did actually have a ticket for one of the concerts from which that recording derives but a touch of January sickness at the time forced a cancellation