Rattle To Leave LSO?

[Darkbloom]

What I didn't know - because Don Gio isn't one of my favourite Mozart operas (perhaps no.5) - was that apparently (Wiki has a reference) the final moralising ensemble was only included on the opening night, and then seldom included until the early 20th c. I always feel the message has been well-made without being spelled out: "Questo è il fin di chi fa mal, e de' perfidi la morte alla vita è sempre ugual."

It isn't among my favourites either. It's mainly Act Two I have problems with. Although it's redeemed (to put it mildly) by the supper scene, it's easy to forget what a hotch-potch we have to put up with until then. Da Ponte really lost his grip and the whole thing ambles along without any sense of purpose for the better part of an hour.

I realise this puts me in a tiny minority.

[gradus]

It isn't among my favourites either. It's mainly Act Two I have problems with. Although it's redeemed (to put it mildly) by the supper scene, it's easy to forget what a hotch-potch we have to put up with until then. Da Ponte really lost his grip and the whole thing ambles along without any sense of purpose for the better part of an hour.

I realise this puts me in a tiny minority.

For final scenes that might be better omitted how about the closing scene of Meistersinger with all that guff about Holy German Art.

[Roslynmuse]

For final scenes that might be better omitted how about the closing scene of Meistersinger with all that guff about Holy German Art.

Such magnificent music though... tempting to change the text...

[Ein Heldenleben]

Such magnificent music though... tempting to change the text...

I think once you fully understand the text it’s less of a problem . The line “honour your German Masters “ does not refer to the master race but the Mastersingers. The Holy German Art reference links Sach’s (and Wagner’s) vision of art to the Holy Roman Empire and (this is where it gets more contentious ) to Wagner’s vision of the role of art in a future Germany. I think it is possible to have a vision of a united Germany that doesn’t have the historical resonance it had in the era of Wagner or Bismarck and later Hitler and indeed in the 50’s and 60’s . To be honest I think the successful post war reunification of Germany has been one of the great triumphs of the later twentieth century. I’ve just read the four volume life of Wagner by Newman and I’m under no illusions about just how repellent many of Wagner’s views were but I have no problem with honouring German and indeed his art. (Apart from some of his writings and his explicitly chauvinistic work which thankfully rarely gets played)

[Roslynmuse]

I think once you fully understand the text it’s less of a problem . The line “honour your German Masters “ does not refer to the master race but the Mastersingers. The Holy German Art reference links Sach’s (and Wagner’s) vision of art to the Holy Roman Empire and (this is where it gets more contentious ) to Wagner’s vision of the role of art in a future Germany. I think it is possible to have a vision of a united Germany that doesn’t have the historical resonance it had in the era of Wagner or Bismarck and later Hitler and indeed in the 50’s and 60’s . To be honest I think the successful post war reunification of Germany has been one of the great triumphs of the later twentieth century. I’ve just read the four volume life of Wagner by Newman and I’m under no illusions about just how repellent many of Wagner’s views were but I have no problem with honouring German and indeed his art. (Apart from some of his writings and his explicitly chauvinistic work which thankfully rarely gets played)

What can make it difficult though are productions that seek to illustrate a less palatable interpretation. Not the only opera that falls victim to the whims and obsessions of producers - I enjoy Wagner more in the concert hall than in the theatre for that reason.

[gradus]

I think once you fully understand the text it’s less of a problem . The line “honour your German Masters “ does not refer to the master race but the Mastersingers. The Holy German Art reference links Sach’s (and Wagner’s) vision of art to the Holy Roman Empire and (this is where it gets more contentious ) to Wagner’s vision of the role of art in a future Germany. I think it is possible to have a vision of a united Germany that doesn’t have the historical resonance it had in the era of Wagner or Bismarck and later Hitler and indeed in the 50’s and 60’s . To be honest I think the successful post war reunification of Germany has been one of the great triumphs of the later twentieth century. I’ve just read the four volume life of Wagner by Newman and I’m under no illusions about just how repellent many of Wagner’s views were but I have no problem with honouring German and indeed his art. (Apart from some of his writings and his explicitly chauvinistic work which thankfully rarely gets played)

I take your point but I find it overblown and carrying more than a whiff of cultural and racial superiority, difficult to ignore given what the following century gave us.

[DracoM]

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2021/jan/16/simon-rattle-applies-for-german-citizenship-brexit

[Ein Heldenleben]

https://www.theguardian.com/music/20...zenship-brexit

So it’s a case of “honour your German maestro.” Then
Doesn’t surprise me : there must be musos all over the UK looking for Irish grandparents.

[french frank]

https://www.theguardian.com/music/20...zenship-brexit

So his decision wasn't entirely down to Brexit? Family concerns &c., quite understandable &c.

[silvestrione]

So his decision wasn't entirely down to Brexit? Family concerns &c., quite understandable &c.

Well, if you're going to live and work mostly over there, it's understandable to want that EU passport, surely?

[Leinster Lass]

Well, if you're going to live and work mostly over there, it's understandable to want that EU passport, surely?

I think he's going to have dual nationality. Who can blame him for doing whatever's necessary for him to continue plying his trade?

[oddoneout]

So his decision wasn't entirely down to Brexit? Family concerns &c., quite understandable &c.

The two go hand in hand I would have thought. If he is going to be based in Germany for sometime to be with the family as well as for his post, and can't see his future being in this country for whatever reason, then being able to travel freely around the other EU countries makes sense.

[french frank]

The two go hand in hand I would have thought. If he is going to be based in Germany for sometime to be with the family as well as for his post, and can't see his future being in this country for whatever reason, then being able to travel freely around the other EU countries makes sense.

Of course, I'm not blaming him. It was just that as I read it there was a bit of shuffling about 'nothing to do with Brexit, oh no'. Whereas, yes, Brexit makes a difference and many of us, including those of us not intending to live abroad resent the split just to make our British fish feel happier.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Interesting brief interview with a chap from UK music on the visa / work permit issue ( there are two separate issues ) on Music Matters today . Getting a work permit if you are Simon Rattle wouldn’t be a problem at all - he’ll have assistants to sort all that - it’s much more of a headache with a 120 piece orchestra and attendant staff. The reason for getting citizenship is that a work permit doesn’t give you residency rights and I guess , like a lot of people who spend most of their time abroad , that’s important to him.

[Richard Barrett]

If I were still living in Germany I would take out German citizenship too. As far as I know Germany doesn't allow dual nationality; at least, when I tried to get a UK passport for my German daughter I was told she'd have to give up her German one.