Rattle To Leave LSO?

[jayne lee wilson]

I remember Rattle's notorious Proms Heldenleben with the BPO, where he was booed. You often get a better sense of whether a performance really works by experiencing it live in the hall, and that concert was a good example. You felt all the life draining out of you while standing through it, something you may not have appreciated from hearing the live relay.

You seem to be suggesting that an inability to appreciate Rattle can be corrected by force-feeding them a ton of recordings until they get the message and agree with you. People have their opinions, which are no more or less valid than anybody else's.

You should remember those of us who even in pre-Pandemic times could not and still cannot get to live concerts for either health or financial reasons, or are simply too far from most major venues for such events.

This discussion is about musical quality, interpretive, technical and about range of repertoire too. The concert experience you describe is of course a principally emotional one, of which I once had many myself at the RLPO. But I would never have judged a given performer on that basis alone. A more considered appreciation of a given performer's work can only come through repeated listening, which means recordings or relays, and has been an essential, inextricably interwoven part of our musical experiences, for about a century now.

Force-feeding doesn't come into it. It is up to the individual how much and how often she listens to any given artist or repertoire. But it is also true in simple point of fact, that the more you hear of a given performer's work, live or recorded or streamed, the more accurate your assessment of their abilities.
So opinions are not, not at all, all equally valid. They depend entirely upon knowledge and experience.

***

And if, re.#224, placing Rattle in "the top-flight" of conductors (which I do, unreservedly) condemns me to dismissal or exclusion from the "hard-core music aficionados" of the Classical Music Culture, I embrace that identity with open arms!

THIS IS THE WAY

[jayne lee wilson]

No doubt others of a similarly mainstream persuasion, yes, I imagine so. I haven't seen anything in his "contemporary" repertoire that indicates a personal interest on his part to seek anything out that's not been thoroughly road-tested, approved by critics and so on. "Curiosity" is something I'd ascribe to a conductor like Ilan Volkov. Rattle comes nowhere near.

If the archive list I excerpted from in #191 (Anderson, Chin, Dean, Dove, Golijov, Grisey, Gruber, Harvey, Lachenmann, Lindberg, later on Rihm, Saariaho etc.) doesn't impress you, than you need to tell us which composers you would have liked to see programmed, in London, Berlin, or elsewhere, within the bounds of practical possibility re. the orchestra/director/audience relationship. Maybe Eliane Radigue should be programmed in Berlin, London or Munich, but a given conductor can't just impose such upon her musicians.
Isn't that very repertoire better served by more specialising groups? (And recommends about it on forums like this, hopefully to listeners curious enough to try it out...). No orchestra or artist can cover everything, and the Rattle Archive (in Berlin or elsewhere) is remarkably wide-ranging, more so than most other great or high-profile conductors.

When I tuned in late-night, lights suitably dimmed, to the Berlin DCH for the Haas In Vain, I'd scarcely heard of the composer before (hardly "approved" or "road tested"), but paid to hear it because of Rattle's eloquent advocacy. This happened with other unknown or little-known works in the same late night slot later on too, and applies to some in the list above, and others in that lengthy archive.
Surely you would see that as a positive, the kind of thing you would encourage, even if the composer is not "contemporary" enough for your own tastes or principles.

***

So the incessant rain holds me down. Walk impossible. Stir Crazy. Tax Return to progress...... back later....

[Bryn]

No doubt others of a similarly mainstream persuasion, yes, I imagine so. I haven't seen anything in his "contemporary" repertoire that indicates a personal interest on his part to seek anything out that's not been thoroughly road-tested, approved by critics and so on. "Curiosity" is something I'd ascribe to a conductor like Ilan Volkov. Rattle comes nowhere near.

Re Ilan Volkov, true but he is very much active as an improviser, too. I know his approach to improvisation is not to some 'purist' improvising musicians' taste but his promotion of composed works from the experimental tradition is very much a defining aspect of his work, as is his political activism in his home country. How many internationally reknowned conductors have gigged (in his case on violin) at Cafe OTO, for instance?

[silvestrione]

If the archive list I excerpted from in #191 (Anderson, Chin, Dean, Dove, Golijov, Grisey, Gruber, Harvey, Lachenmann, Lindberg, later on Rihm, Saariaho etc.) doesn't impress you, than you need to tell us which composers you would have liked to see programmed, in London, Berlin, or elsewhere, within the bounds of practical possibility re. the orchestra/director/audience relationship. Maybe Eliane Radigue should be programmed in Berlin, London or Munich, but a given conductor can't just impose such upon her musicians.
Isn't that very repertoire better served by more specialising groups? (And recommends about it on forums like this, hopefully to listeners curious enough to try it out...). No orchestra or artist can cover everything, and the Rattle Archive (in Berlin or elsewhere) is remarkably wide-ranging, more so than most other great or high-profile conductors..[/I]

Indeed. I well remember the second-last LSO Rattle I went to. I splashed out on one of the best seats, as it was such a fabulous programme (Stravinsky Symphonies of Winds, Birtwistle The Shadow of the Night, Adams Harmonielehre), and noticed that, for the first half, with the Birtwistle, there were several empty seats nearby, which filled up after the interval, for the Adams!

[Leinster Lass]

You should remember those of us who even in pre-Pandemic times could not and still cannot get to live concerts for either health or financial reasons, or are simply too far from most major venues for such events.

This discussion is about musical quality, interpretive, technical and about range of repertoire too. The concert experience you describe is of course a principally emotional one, of which I once had many myself at the RLPO. But I would never have judged a given performer on that basis alone. A more considered appreciation of a govern performer's work can only come through repeated listening, which means recordings or relays, and has been an essential, inextricably interwoven part of our musical experiences, for about a century now.

Force-feeding doesn't come into it. It is up to the individual how much and how often she listens to any given artist or repertoire. But it is also true in simple point of fact, that the more you hear of a given performer's work, live or recorded or streamed, the more accurate your assessment of their abilities.
So opinions are not, not at all, all equally valid. They depend entirely upon knowledge and experience.

***

And if, re.#224, placing Rattle in "the top-flight" of conductors (which I do, unreservedly) condemns me to dismissal or exclusion from the "hard-core music aficionados" of the Classical Music Culture, I embrace that identity with open arms!

THIS IS THE WAY

That goes for me, too - one of the great unwashed of 'mainstream persuasion'. Fortunately, I'm modest enough to know my place, but it's still comforting to have it confirmed by experts!

[Richard Barrett]

When I tuned in late-night, lights suitably dimmed, to the Berlin DCH for the Haas In Vain, I'd scarcely heard of the composer before (hardly "approved" or "road tested")

Not by you perhaps, but he is one of the most frequently performed German composers of his generation. I could come up with a list of names but all you'd really have to do is look at the programmes of any contemporary music festival anywhere in the world to see plenty of individuals whose work deserves to be at least as well-known as that of the names in SR's repertoire, and I'm not even talking about people like Radigue that couldn't be assimilated into the kind of rehearsal/performance schedule of a typical symphony orchestra. His repertoire embodies a particular way of thinking about so-called "contemporary classical music" which does orchestral culture no favours by reinforcing its museum-like character.

[silvestrione]

Not by you perhaps, but he is one of the most frequently performed German composers of his generation. I could come up with a list of names but all you'd really have to do is look at the programmes of any contemporary music festival anywhere in the world to see plenty of individuals whose work deserves to be at least as well-known as that of the names in SR's repertoire, and I'm not even talking about people like Radigue that couldn't be assimilated into the kind of rehearsal/performance schedule of a typical symphony orchestra. His repertoire embodies a particular way of thinking about so-called "contemporary classical music" which does orchestral culture no favours by reinforcing its museum-like character.

Well, I can't let that go without, once again, opining that it is an absurd judgement, as, IMVHO, is brought out in my posts above, and even more in JLW's.

[french frank]

So some judge his standing by what he doesn't do, and others by what he does?

[ahinton]

So some judge his standing by what he doesn't do, and others by what he does?

So it would seem...

[Bryn]

So some judge his standing by what he doesn't do, and others by what he does?

And some by a bit of both.

[gurnemanz]

Trying to think what watery persuasion best typecasts me musically. Mainstream? Tributary? Canal? Rivulet? Backwater? Ox-bow lake? It's not leading me anywhere useful.

[Richard Barrett]

Well, I can't let that go without, once again, opining that it is an absurd judgement, as, IMVHO, is brought out in my posts above, and even more in JLW's.

How much do you know about contemporary music?

[Richard Barrett]

And some by a bit of both.

... and what's wrong with that?

[Leinster Lass]

How much do you know about contemporary music?

Enough to make my own mind up, thanks!

[silvestrione]

How much do you know about contemporary music?

How well informed are you about Rattle's career, really, in its earlier stages?