Rattle To Leave LSO?

[Richard Barrett]

Superb performance but curiously unmoving...

There you have it. I've seen SR conduct the LSO only once - there were moments when it was quite astonishing how he brings off subtleties of balance and dynamic (aided by top-drawer players of course) but my overall impression was of a brilliant surface with not much underneath it.

[cloughie]

Watch out, the long arm of the topic police will be after you with that kind of talk.

Some Tories are interested in culture - what they don't want is having the great unwashed getting interested in it too.

Yes but they are in a different mould!

[Bryn]

There you have it. I've seen SR conduct the LSO only once - there were moments when it was quite astonishing how he brings off subtleties of balance and dynamic (aided by top-drawer players of course) but my overall impression was of a brilliant surface with not much underneath it.

Just what I feel about most of his Messiaen performances. Very occasionally he does pull off a really fine one that gets below the surface though. Back in the early '90s, there was a broadcast on Radio 3 of a performance of Chronochromie which was quite the finest I have heard.

[Simon Biazeck]

Thanks for the excellent analysis BSP. I don’t think the “bureaucracy” will be a factor . The UK govt have made it Fairly clear that highly skilled well paid people won’t have a problem with visas and work permits and conductors at this level have assistants and agents who sort everything, and I mean everything for them. It is a very pampered existence when you are on £10,000 to £20,000 per perf - not much need to even lift a phone really . You are right about the symphony hall In Birmingham- superb acoustic . I heard Rattle do Mahler 8 there once . Superb performance but curiously unmoving...

Absolutely right - it won't be a problem at that level and certainly not a deciding factor in the choice of candidate. At my level (not that I am going for it!) - quite another matter!

Rattle going is a message from the Arts. Good for him. Munich will be delighted. The Radio Orchestra are superb. It’s a great city and they treasure the arts.

SBz.



SBz.

[HighlandDougie]

There you have it. I've seen SR conduct the LSO only once - there were moments when it was quite astonishing how he brings off subtleties of balance and dynamic (aided by top-drawer players of course) but my overall impression was of a brilliant surface with not much underneath it.

I've seen him conduct reasonably often, starting with - I want to say the Hallé but maybe it was the RLPO? - in the mid 70s, then in his first appearance and subsequent concerts with the CBSO and, more recently, several times with the LSO. While he doesn't excel in everything (I'm not a huge fan of his Mahler, nor of his Sibelius), I think that there is a good deal more to him than Richard implies. Haydn, Schönberg, Tippett, Bruckner and Beethoven are all composers where I've heard performances from him as good as any I've ever heard. He has suffered from snobbery because he's from oop north (even worse, from Liverpool) and he probably took on too much too young but orchestral players rate him very highly, as is evidenced from the rapport which he clearly has currently with the LSO. He will be sorely missed in London.

[Historian]

It's not just orchestral players who rate him. Quite a long time ago I was part of the male chorus for his first Parsifal. This involved a great deal of travelling and rehearsal but, well, how often do you get to sing Parsifal? Just before the performance, when he must have had quite a lot on his mind I imagine, he took the trouble to come up to the space high up in Symphony Hall where we were assembled. "Just wanted to say how much I appreciate the time and effort you have already put in to this performance. Thank you so much." (I paraphrase/summarise).

We all sang like heroes that evening.

[cloughie]

I've seen him conduct reasonably often, starting with - I want to say the Hallé but maybe it was the RLPO? - in the mid 70s, then in his first appearance and subsequent concerts with the CBSO and, more recently, several times with the LSO. While he doesn't excel in everything (I'm not a huge fan of his Mahler, nor of his Sibelius), I think that there is a good deal more to him than Richard implies. Haydn, Schönberg, Tippett, Bruckner and Beethoven are all composers where I've heard performances from him as good as any I've ever heard. He has suffered from snobbery because he's from oop north (even worse, from Liverpool) and he probably took on too much too young but orchestral players rate him very highly, as is evidenced from the rapport which he clearly has currently with the LSO. He will be sorely missed in London.

...and indeed the rapport he had with the CBSO.

[Cockney Sparrow]

...... I heard Rattle do Mahler 8 there once . Superb performance but curiously unmoving...

Same here. Give me Colin Davis every time (and there were two or three times, I'm glad to say.....).

[jayne lee wilson]

I followed Rattle from the live RLPO concerts in the 70s/80s - outstandingly, a DSCH 15 and a Cooke Mahler 10 - through most of his CBSO Concerts on Radio 3 in the 1990s (I would tape them devotedly, and his Proms were always true events), and the remarkably consistent series of recordings with them in a wide-ranging rep, from Debussy to Haydn, Sibelius and Mahler (excellent x-ray 7th from Aldeburgh) and even a pretty good Bruckner 7. The Henze 7. Wonderful Bartok including the Piano Concertos with Peter Donohoe (great cover art!) and a Concerto for Orchestra that is among the best even now.
Rameau Suites featured too - I was sorry he didn't record those then. Excellent 2VS suites and the Op. 31 Variations, the Op.9...., a terrific Erwartung......
(LSO Live with Rattle has already given us an outstanding Bruckner 6, and the Debussy Pelléas...).

It was a marvellous achievement in Birmingham..... Berlin was just a little more recalcitrant.
"Remakes" of the Brahms Op.25 or those Variations were not as compelling as with the CBSO... was the Berlin Mahler 10, great as it was, truly an advance on that stunning early BSO release? c/w the Op.25).
Partly an acoustical-engineering thing.... but as I've said before in this (remarkable!) thread, it takes two, and it is often difficult to get those Berliners to play ball. Having said which, I was once a regular at the DCH, and many of his concerts there were wonderful - including a stunning DSCH 4 (my first live DCH relay, with the Berg Lulu Suite - that was some Sunday Afternoon, as long ago as 2009...), and such as Lutosławski which led to an exceptional album - one of the very best Luto one-offs. (In the DCH, the observable body-language of the orchestra/conductor relationships (with other conductors too) was one of the very revealing fascinations....and largely favourable to Rattle, if not to some others....)

I recall him saying (in a DCH piece, possibly still there in the archive somewhere) that whenever he did a Beethoven Symphony with the Berliner Philharmoniker (it may have been the 5th, or a more general comment) for the first 5 years, "they would give me Furtwängler"..... it seems to make a significant point very vividly.

Often forgotten, his late night DCH series of New Music, including the epic Georg Haas In Vain...... I loved those....I dimmed the lights... sipped a drink....Cat on lap, peering at the wondrous sounds emanating from the speakers......

Sorry for any self-repetition here. He is a truly great conductor in so many ways, and will always be a musical hero to me.

[Ein Heldenleben]

There you have it. I've seen SR conduct the LSO only once - there were moments when it was quite astonishing how he brings off subtleties of balance and dynamic (aided by top-drawer players of course) but my overall impression was of a brilliant surface with not much underneath it.

On the other hand I was moved by his RVW 5 at the Proms this year. It might have been the circumstances but having heard it three times now I just think he conducted it well and the band played very well. Funny thing about that Mahler - it was terrifically well sung and played but didn’t “take-off” , reach escape velocity. Might have been that I had the prospect of an all day meeting the next day but I don’t think so.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I followed Rattle from the live RLPO concerts in the 70s/80s - outstandingly, a DSCH 15 and a Cooke Mahler 10 - through most of his CBSO Concerts on Radio 3 in the 1990s (I would tape them devotedly, and his Proms were always true events), and the remarkably consistent series of recordings with them in a wide-ranging rep, from Debussy to Haydn, Sibelius and Mahler (excellent x-ray 7th from Aldeburgh) and even a pretty good Bruckner 7. The Henze 7. Wonderful Bartok including the Piano Concertos with Peter Donohoe (great cover art!) and a Concerto for Orchestra that is among the best even now.
Rameau Suites featured too - I was sorry he didn't record those then. Excellent 2VS suites and the Op. 31 Variations, the Op.9...., a terrific Erwartung......

It was a marvellous achievement in Birmingham..... Berlin was just a little more recalcitrant.."remakes" of the Brahms Op.25 or those Variations were not as compelling as with the CBSO...partly an acoustical thing.... but as I've said before in this (remarkable!) thread, it takes two, and it is often difficult to get those Berliners to play ball. Having said which, I was once a regular at the DCH, and many of his concerts there were wonderful - including a stunning DSCH 4 (my first live DCH relay, with the Berg Lulu Suite - that was some Sunday Afternoon...), and such as Lutosławski which led to an exceptional album - one of the very best Luto one-offs. (In the DCH, the observable body-language of the orchestra/conductor relationships (with other conductors too) was one of the very revealing fascinations....and largely favourable to Rattle, if not to some others....)

I recall him saying that whenever he did a Beethoven Symphony with the Berliner Philharmoniker (it may have been the 5th, or a more general comment) for the first 5 years, "they would give me Furtwangler"..... it seems to make a significant point very vividly.

Often forgotten, his late night DCH series of New Music, including the epic Georg Haas In Vain...... I loved those....I dimmed the lights... sipped a drink....Cat on lap, peering at the wondrous sounds emanating from the speakers......

Sorry for any self-repetition here. He is a truly great conductor in so many ways, and will always be a musical hero to me.

Do you think if I conducted them they’d “give me Furtwangler ? “ I could make quite a nice living doing that and draw quite a lot of spiritual sustenance as a bonus.

[Leinster Lass]

On the other hand I was moved by his RVW 5 at the Proms this year. It might have been the circumstances but having heard it three times now I just think he conducted it well and the band played very well. Funny thing about that Mahler - it was terrifically well sung and played but didn’t “take-off” , reach escape velocity. Might have been that I had the prospect of an all day meeting the next day but I don’t think so.

(Last year? )

[silvestrione]

Just what I feel about most of his Messiaen performances. Very occasionally he does pull off a really fine one that gets below the surface though. Back in the early '90s, there was a broadcast on Radio 3 of a performance of Chronochromie which was quite the finest I have heard.

I was there (a Prom I think, with Bruckner 7), and managed later to make an off-air recording which is just about my favourite, though there's nothing wrong with the other three, or four (Dorati, Boulez, Cambreling, George Benjamin). CD versions I mean.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Absolutely right - it won't be a problem at that level and certainly not a deciding factor in the choice of candidate. At my level (not that I am going for it!) - quite another matter!

Rattle going is a message from the Arts. Good for him. Munich will be delighted. The Radio Orchestra are superb. It’s a great city and they treasure the arts.

SBz.



SBz.

I don’t think getting a work permit for a one-off or even a short concert series will be a problem. The problem would be more permanent employment in competitive and remunerative areas . To be honest even when we were in EU there were professions it was well nigh impossible to work - the one that springs to mind is ski instruction. The problem is the faff and the exceptions. For example it’s relatively easy to get a work permit in the States if you are making a news or current affairs film , it’s much harder if you are trying to make an entertainment or drama.

[Simon Biazeck]

I don’t think getting a work permit for a one-off or even a short concert series will be a problem. The problem would be more permanent employment in competitive and remunerative areas . To be honest even when we were in EU there were professions it was well nigh impossible to work - the one that springs to mind is ski instruction. The problem is the faff and the exceptions. For example it’s relatively easy to get a work permit in the States if you are making a news or current affairs film , it’s much harder if you are trying to make an entertainment or drama.

Oh, I know - yes!