The bells, the bells!

[Pulcinella]

No, not the Rachmaninov.

Prompted by a piece in today's Times, about the return to its home in Poland of a 400kg bell, cast in 1555, taken by the Nazis (it narrowly escaped – their word – being melted down), I'm hoping that there are some knowledgable people on the forum who can answer a couple of questions that I often wonder about regarding church bells and their use. There are probably learned articles I could discover (perhaps even on Wiki!) but my questions are quite basic.

1. How, why, and when (OK, that's three questions already!) did the practice of change ringing (i.e., having a tuned series of bells rather than just a few to clang together, in that wonderfully evocative way that appeals so much when I hear it in Italy, and for example Britten captured so well in his writing for Death in Venice) evolve?
2. Given that bells are indeed tuned (we read of a set as being in a certain key), what tuning do they use? A=440? And does the tuning of old (continental?) bells tell us anything about baroque pitch? Would church bells have been tuned in line with instruments?

Any responses here and/or suggestions of where to look for answers gratefully received.

(Hosts: I'm happy to have this post moved to the Musical questions and answers thread, if that is deemed more appropriate, but I hope that it might attract more attention as an individual thread.)

[Dave2002]

Can't answer your questions - though I'm sure others will come along soon.

In the meantime, do you remember the "happy" bell developments from a few years back? Seems most bells don't work so well - presumably because of their harmonic series, so there were efforts to produce bells which sounded more cheerful. From what I vaguely recollect, the part of the spectrum roughly corresponding to a musical third tends to represent a minor third, rather than a major third, so sounds more doleful. The "newer" bell corrected that to some extent.

If I've misremembered this, please correct me.

I think handbell sets have a more cheerful sound.

PS: there may also be an emphasised "fourth" in some bells. I'd need some recordings to do an analysis - but that's sure to have been done already by others.

[french frank]

1. How, why, and when (OK, that's three questions already!) did the practice of change ringing (i.e., having a tuned series of bells rather than just a few to clang together,

Seems to have developed in the 17th century, according to this brief history. You'll need to get hold of Tintinnalogia (1668) and Campanologia (1677) to get the details

2. Given that bells are indeed tuned (we read of a set as being in a certain key), what tuning do they use? A=440? And does the tuning of old (continental?) bells tell us anything about baroque pitch? Would church bells have been tuned in line with instruments?

to be discovered …

[gradus]

Bells sometimes sound flat to me sounded against each other but given that I don't have perfect pitch I wonder why. Is Pulci on to something with the point about tuning?

[french frank]

Bells sometimes sound flat to me sounded against each other but given that I don't have perfect pitch I wonder why. Is Pulci on to something with the point about tuning?

Something here about the tuning of church bells in the foundry. It sounds particularly complicated but all I could see was: "Because of this compromise large bells are therefore not always tuned to concert pitch." In which case how do they get the set in tune with each other?

[Ein Heldenleben]

Something here about the tuning of church bells in the foundry. It sounds particularly complicated but all I could see was: "Because of this compromise large bells are therefore not always tuned to concert pitch." In which case how do they get the set in tune with each other?

They are not in tune with each other which is what can make a peal of bells so excruciating. Bells can only ever be tuned down by shaving... never up .which doesn’t help matters.

[Pulcinella]

Something here about the tuning of church bells in the foundry. It sounds particularly complicated but all I could see was: "Because of this compromise large bells are therefore not always tuned to concert pitch." In which case how do they get the set in tune with each other?

Another interesting comment in that article:

If the bell is mounted as cast, without any tuning, it is called a "maiden bell". Russian bells are treated in this way and cast for a certain tone.

Would that make a Shostakovich(ian) tocsin (the last movement of S11) even more 'alarming'?

[french frank]

Another interesting comment in that article:

If the bell is mounted as cast, without any tuning, it is called a "maiden bell". Russian bells are treated in this way and cast for a certain tone.

Would that make a Shostakovich(ian) tocsin (the last movement of S11) even more 'alarming'?

By 'tone' I presume they mean timbre or colour? A fine resonant sound, albeit flat (or possibly sharp)?

[EnemyoftheStoat]

Another interesting comment in that article:

Would that make a Shostakovich(ian) tocsin (the last movement of S11) even more 'alarming'?

I knew there was a reason I kept that Gergiev/Mariinsky DSCH11. Must check it out.

[ardcarp]

Bells can only ever be tuned down by shaving

Actually, it's much more complex than that. The fundamental note of a bell is accompanied by a shower of upper harmonics (which is maybe why some people hear them as out-of-tune) but nowadays, the harmonics are 'tuned' with the aid of electronic devices.

[smittims]

Bells in orchestral music are always a bit of a risk, as they can't be tuned, there and then, to the orchestra . Hence they often sound odd: the ones in the finale of Symphonie Fantastique sometimes sound very different from Berlioz' written notes . It's a pleasure when , by luck or careful choice, one is just right, one of the best examples is at the very end of an old recording of Fontane di Roma, Philharmonia/Galliera.

What fascinates me about church bells is the so-called 'difference tone' , an extra, different pitch within the sound. Is it a tritone? I think Britten tries to emulate this in War Requiem.

I recently spent a week in Llandudno and had the pleasure of a fine view from my window of Trinity Church. the big Anglican church in the town centre. On the Friday evening we were pleasantly serenaded by the full peal.

[Petrushka]

Sometime in the 1970s there was an amusing and informative article in 'Hi-Fi News and Record Review' entitled 'Hell's Bells and Hector Berlioz' which looked at the ways in wich the bells are sounded in the Symphonie Fantastique. It would be interesting to read it again if only it could be accessed.

Some versions utilised pianos and/or tubular bells. Karajan's 1975 recording uses a recording of an actual church bell inserted into the appropriate places but you can hear traffic noise behind it which distracts. Other problematic pieces using bells which rarely seem to succeed are Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony (3rd movement) and Richard Strauss' Also Sprach Zarathustra. The otherwise excellent VPO/Maazel recording sounds 'wrong' at this point while John Culshaw gives an amusing account of the huge church bell they used in the 1959 VPO/Karajan recording.

Any more problematic recordings that either get it gloriously right or horribly wrong?

[Bryn]

Sometime in the 1970s there was an amusing and informative article in 'Hi-Fi News and Record Review' entitled 'Hell's Bells and Hector Berlioz' which looked at the ways in wich the bells are sounded in the Symphonie Fantastique. It would be interesting to read it again if only it could be accessed.

Some versions utilised pianos and/or tubular bells. Karajan's 1975 recording uses a recording of an actual church bell inserted into the appropriate places but you can hear traffic noise behind it which distracts. Other problematic pieces using bells which rarely seem to succeed are Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony (3rd movement) and Richard Strauss' Also Sprach Zarathustra. The otherwise excellent VPO/Maazel recording sounds 'wrong' at this point while John Culshaw gives an amusing account of the huge church bell they used in the 1959 VPO/Karajan recording.

Any more problematic recordings that either get it gloriously right or horribly wrong?

One of Bernstein's recordings used large steel plates, IIRC, as did Haitink. See, also: file:///C:/Users/Lenovo/Downloads/clecocq,+JCAA-Vol.19-No.4-1991-pp.043.pdf

[Pulcinella]

I have a dim memory of reading that the Boston Symphony Orchestra took their own bells with them on tour so they could always fall back on performing the SF if other programming went awry.
Presumably they took the music too.

[MickyD]

Sometime in the 1970s there was an amusing and informative article in 'Hi-Fi News and Record Review' entitled 'Hell's Bells and Hector Berlioz' which looked at the ways in wich the bells are sounded in the Symphonie Fantastique. It would be interesting to read it again if only it could be accessed.

Some versions utilised pianos and/or tubular bells. Karajan's 1975 recording uses a recording of an actual church bell inserted into the appropriate places but you can hear traffic noise behind it which distracts. Other problematic pieces using bells which rarely seem to succeed are Tchaikovsky's Manfred Symphony (3rd movement) and Richard Strauss' Also Sprach Zarathustra. The otherwise excellent VPO/Maazel recording sounds 'wrong' at this point while John Culshaw gives an amusing account of the huge church bell they used in the 1959 VPO/Karajan recording.

Any more problematic recordings that either get it gloriously right or horribly wrong?

Yes, one big disappointment comes in the Jos Van Immerseel Symphonie Fantastique, when he uses two old pianos instead of bells! He may be historically informed, but even this period instruments enthusiast finds the effect a real let down!