Rhythms and time signatures

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  • Dave2002
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 17963

    Rhythms and time signatures

    How many of us really think about rhythms and time signatures?

    OK - we know that a lot of music is in 4/4 and that waltzes and minuets are in 3/4, and that some more "complex" music, such as by Bartók and Dave Brubeck might be notated in other time signatures, but to what extent does the notation determine the music? Maybe a composer's intentions get shoehorned into a representation which is perhaps only an approximation of what was really hoped for. Maybe many people don't even think about time signatures at all - they just listen to the music - and don't try to analyse it at all. Try asking a "man or woman in the street" if a particular song is in 3/4 or 4/4 and I reckon many people would give an uncomprehending stare in response. I might be wrong, but I have a strong suspicion that I wouldn't be.

    This article shows that things aren't always simple - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signature
    Before reading it I didn't know that Tchaikovsky used two time signatures together in his second string quartet - 2nd movement, though I was familiar with the 5/4 Pathetique symphony movement.

    These days quite a lot of music might be generated dynamically, by a performer playing directly using a midi keyboard, but the notated results may turn out to be rather odd. The notation for many pieces of popular music often looks really weird to me. I suspect it's because someone tried to notate something that was played - rather than forcing the representation into a formal straight jacket. There isn't necessarily a single way to notate a piece of music anyway, though there can be small and subtle differences between different representations of the same piece, and the way the notation would be interpreted by different performers.

    I tried to notate some ideas recently, and have been slightly surprised to discover that the best approximation I've found so far to what I imagined is actually a 7/4 representatation.
  • Mario
    Full Member
    • Aug 2020
    • 567

    #2
    I don’t know about others, but I love this kind of discussion. I’m sure somehow it adds to the enjoyment of music to consider the “technical” side of things, so thanks for posting Dave.

    I don’t think you’re wrong at all regarding Joe Public’s perception of time signatures – after all, until I started studying Music Theory, I wouldn’t have had any idea of what you’re talking about (I think I’m a little better now).

    The Tchaikovsky is interesting in that clearly, “weird” time signatures are not a new thing are they?

    I’m fascinated by how others reply to the question of how professional composers decide on a time signature, or indeed a key signature even – would the Ode to Joy sound distinctly different to a musically-untrained member of the public if it were written in a different key entirely? I doubt it.

    So, composers, how and why do you decide on a particular strategy?

    I really would love to know!

    Thanks Dave,

    Mario

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    • Dave2002
      Full Member
      • Dec 2010
      • 17963

      #3
      Working out rhythms - which of course percussionists and drummers must do all the time - seems to be quite hard. I don't think it's helped by so much music being written in 4/4, which requires triplets in order to achieve some effects. That's not to say that 4/4 is inherently a bad thing, but in the early stages of putting down ideas it might be easier to work out more detailed timings/rhythm by perhaps using a completely free form of bar - or using a time signature such as 12/8. 60/4 (or 60/8, 60/16) might be useful for planning, as 60 is divisible by 1,2,3,4,5,6,10,12,15,20 and 30. However, 4/4 with triplets might be considered equivalent to a 12 note bar - with divisors 2,3,4,6, but might require a different way of looking at the notation.

      There are apps available for Midi and iOS which allow one to tap out rhythms, but unfortunately some of those (perhaps many) try to straightjacket what was tapped out into 4/4 or another "standard" time signature.

      Once the rhythms have been worked out by the composer "all" that is left for the instrumentalists called in to play the piece is to play what is written fairly accurately!

      Many people would be able to tap out a rhythm if asked to do so, but I suspect that fairly few would be able to write down what they tapped out with any precision.

      Another aspect of music which is I guess often assumed is phrasing. People used to singing songs, or playing certain pieces will notice different sections (verses for hymns, for example), and will stop or pause at the end of each section. This seems natural, but give a written out score to a computer program to interpret, and often the result will be dreadful, as computers don't know about this extra level of interpretation.

      However, for some types of music I hear that a rigid approach to tempi is required (though I'm not convinced ...) - for example ballet music. I feel that this is why some ballet music works better in a concert than at a ballet performance, as (for me the dancers are sometimes a distraction) and in a concert hall conductors can put in far more variation than they might be allowed to in a ballet performance. I know of a conductor who refuses to go anywhere near ballet music for this reason.
      Last edited by Dave2002; 30-12-20, 11:52.

      Comment

      • vinteuil
        Full Member
        • Nov 2010
        • 12683

        #4
        .

        ... another solution :

        Louis Couperin: Unmeasured Prelude in D. Robert Hill, harpsichordlive, March 2015c2015


        .
        Louis Couperin (Musical Artist), Harpsichord (Musical Instrument), Prelude (Composition Type), F Major (Musical Scale), non mesuré, unmeasured, prelude, 13




        .

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        • Dave2002
          Full Member
          • Dec 2010
          • 17963

          #5
          Indeed. Note though some early music was written without bar lines - which I believe only emerged as a sort of consistent notation after 1500.



          However, absence of bar lines doesn't necessarily mean absence of rhythm.

          Comment

          • Eine Alpensinfonie
            Host
            • Nov 2010
            • 20564

            #6
            Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
            How many of us really think about rhythms and time signatures?
            Classical musicians mainly. As you’ve said, most popular music doesn’t stray from 4/4. Even when it’s an arrangement of a classical work, the music is often amended to become 4/4.

            I tried to notate some ideas recently, and have been slightly surprised to discover that the best approximation I've found so far to what I imagined is actually a 7/4 representatation.
            There’s a very fine example of 7/4 time in Scene 4 of Elgar’s Caractacus.

            Comment

            • Mario
              Full Member
              • Aug 2020
              • 567

              #7
              Alternatively, isn't "Money", on Pink Floyd's "Wish you were here" album, in 7/4 time also?

              Mario

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              • Pulcinella
                Host
                • Feb 2014
                • 10708

                #8
                Originally posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View Post
                There’s a very fine example of 7/4 time in Scene 4 of Elgar’s Caractacus.
                Originally posted by Auferstehen View Post
                Alternatively, isn't "Money", on Pink Floyd's "Wish you were here" album, in 7/4 time also?

                Mario
                The finale of Firebird certainly is!

                Comment

                • cloughie
                  Full Member
                  • Dec 2011
                  • 22072

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
                  How many of us really think about rhythms and time signatures?
                  Frequently - when trying to write down ideas and arrangements.

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                  • Bryn
                    Banned
                    • Mar 2007
                    • 24688

                    #10

                    Comment

                    • cloughie
                      Full Member
                      • Dec 2011
                      • 22072

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Auferstehen View Post
                      Alternatively, isn't "Money", on Pink Floyd's "Wish you were here" album, in 7/4 time also?

                      Mario
                      No it’s on ‘Dark side of the moon’.

                      Bernstein’s Something’s coming from ‘West Side Story’ alternates between 2/4 and 3/4.

                      Comment

                      • Mario
                        Full Member
                        • Aug 2020
                        • 567

                        #12
                        Originally posted by cloughie View Post
                        No it’s on ‘Dark side of the moon’.


                        Sorry,

                        Mario

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                        • Dave2002
                          Full Member
                          • Dec 2010
                          • 17963

                          #13
                          Just spotted Stravinsky's Élégie for solo viola. The "bars" are of varying lengths - so effectively there's no time signature. It was written in 1944 in memory of Alphonse Onnou of the Pro Arte Quartet to a commission by Germain Prévost also of that quartet.

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                          • Ein Heldenleben
                            Full Member
                            • Apr 2014
                            • 6587

                            #14
                            I was thinking that the violin solo part of Lark Ascending must be the most popular and played piece of classical music without a time signature . Although it’s in 6/8 the rhapsodic solo is without bar lines....

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                            • Serial_Apologist
                              Full Member
                              • Dec 2010
                              • 37353

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
                              Just spotted Stravinsky's Élégie for solo viola. The "bars" are of varying lengths - so effectively there's no time signature. It was written in 1944 in memory of Alphonse Onnou of the Pro Arte Quartet to a commission by Germain Prévost also of that quartet.
                              There's a story I remember hearing a long time ago about the difficulties orchestras were (apocryphally) experiencing in performing Walton's "Portsmouth Point" overture, which (as I understand it) is written in sequences of bars of differing time signatures. So, as a result, Walton's friend, the composer Constant Lambert, "successfully" came up with a version of the same work written in 4/4 time throughout! Having heard the two versions side-by-side - I think it may well have been on a COTW that twinned Lambert and Rawsthorne - I have to say that there is a perceptible difference in feeling between the two versions - to the detriment of the original in the form of the revision!

                              Is it also the case that someone came up with a similar idea for "The Rite of Spring"?

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