Electronic Music

[Dave2002]

I just don't understand what that means, where music is concerned.

I find that perfectly understandable, in the context of what was written above.

[RichardB]

What group do creative musicians think of when they do their thing? I don't believe they're all solipsists, making music for themselves, or purified and ascetic, making music for music's sake. They have peers; they presumably want to get their ideas performed etc. This sounds like writing for a market, if not the market.

I would say it sounds like writing for fellow human beings rather than any kind of market. To be a creative musician in today's society (I mean as opposed to a mainstream "contemporary classical" composer like Turnage or Macmillan) requires a certain idealism at every stage in the process, including the conviction that the music has the potential to find its way to an audience that will appreciate it. Which sometimes happens, sometimes not. I have the impression that the way the pandemic has exacerbated social inequalities is mirrored in the way that the return to live performance is marginalising even further those musics that were already marginalised.

[mahlerfan]

I would say it sounds like writing for fellow human beings rather than any kind of market. To be a creative musician in today's society (I mean as opposed to a mainstream "contemporary classical" composer like Turnage or Macmillan) requires a certain idealism at every stage in the process, including the conviction that the music has the potential to find its way to an audience that will appreciate it. Which sometimes happens, sometimes not. I have the impression that the way the pandemic has exacerbated social inequalities is mirrored in the way that the return to live performance is marginalising even further those musics that were already marginalised.

But isn't the 'market' also made up of fellow human beings? And regarding the pandemic's impact on already marginalised music, I've attended concerts of the creative artists you're thinking of prior to the pandemic, and personally made up nearly 15% of the audience on my own! As superb as I may have found a number of those concerts, generally people aren't really interested.

[Serial_Apologist]

But isn't the 'market' also made up of fellow human beings? And regarding the pandemic's impact on already marginalised music, I've attended concerts of the creative artists you're thinking of prior to the pandemic, and personally made up nearly 15% of the audience on my own! As superb as I may have found a number of those concerts, generally people aren't really interested.

Regarding fellow human beings as by definition "the market" is to see other people primarily as consumers, wouldn't one say? This isn't Richard's view.

[mahlerfan]

Regarding fellow human beings as by definition "the market" is to see other people primarily as consumers, wouldn't one say? This isn't Richard's view.

You misquote me very badly. Look again.

[Mandryka]

I would say it sounds like writing for fellow human beings rather than any kind of market. To be a creative musician in today's society (I mean as opposed to a mainstream "contemporary classical" composer like Turnage or Macmillan) requires a certain idealism at every stage in the process, including the conviction that the music has the potential to find its way to an audience that will appreciate it. Which sometimes happens, sometimes not. I have the impression that the way the pandemic has exacerbated social inequalities is mirrored in the way that the return to live performance is marginalising even further those musics that were already marginalised.

Where I was coming from is a reflection of something I’m reading now, which if you don’t know you may enjoy - Pierre Bourdieu’s books on Flaubert and Manet. I’m just thinking about the ideas there a lot.

But what you say sounds plausible to me. A composer I know, he gets stuff performed though not recorded, certainly not as successful as you but still, pre pandemic he was managing to make a life without compromise, is on the point of throwing the towel in because he’s convinced that very few people care if he ever writes another note.

[RichardB]

But isn't the 'market' also made up of fellow human beings? And regarding the pandemic's impact on already marginalised music, I've attended concerts of the creative artists you're thinking of prior to the pandemic, and personally made up nearly 15% of the audience on my own! As superb as I may have found a number of those concerts, generally people aren't really interested.

A "market", as S_A says, is made up of products and consumers. You might choose to see the musical world in such terms but surely that doesn't do justice to musicians or listeners or the relationship between them. Otherwise: I could tell you a few stories about sparsely attended concerts, and also about concerts where people had to be turned away at the door. But so what? You say "generally people aren't really interested"; well, generally people aren't really interested in Mahler either, I'm sorry to say.

[RichardB]

pre pandemic he was managing to make a life without compromise, is on the point of throwing the towel in because he’s convinced that very few people care if he ever writes another note.

I can understand that feeling completely.

[RichardB]

What is the title of this thread again? ... today is the birthday of the Croatian-French composer Ivo Malec (1925-2019) whose Triola ou Symphonie pour moi-même is for me one of the masterpieces of electronic music:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQvnWj7TORM

[Serial_Apologist]

What is the title of this thread again? ... today is the birthday of the Croatian-French composer Ivo Malec (1925-2019) whose Triola ou Symphonie pour moi-même is for me one of the masterpieces of electronic music:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQvnWj7TORM

That pun, intended or not, is not lost on me!

I'll have a listen to that tomorrow, thanks. The only electronic music by Malec I have heard were two short pieces on the Philips double LP Electronic Panorama of 1970: Dahovi I and II.

[mahlerfan]

A "market", as S_A says, is made up of products and consumers. You might choose to see the musical world in such terms but surely that doesn't do justice to musicians or listeners or the relationship between them. Otherwise: I could tell you a few stories about sparsely attended concerts, and also about concerts where people had to be turned away at the door. But so what? You say "generally people aren't really interested"; well, generally people aren't really interested in Mahler either, I'm sorry to say.

I found S_A's post a bit loosey-goosey, so thanks for your explanation of his plenipotentiary explanation of your thoughts!

When I say 'people' I think you know full well I mean concert-goers and record-buyers, not the general public.

Perhaps Mahler suffers disinterest like the niche composers in question, or perhaps not.

[mahlerfan]

pre pandemic he was managing to make a life without compromise, is on the point of throwing the towel in because he’s convinced that very few people care if he ever writes another note.

Sad. Is it because the market has diminished, or perhaps his peer-community-network don't care anymore? I can't really understand why he would feel like that.

[Joseph K]

I found S_A's post a bit loosey-goosey, so thanks for your explanation of his plenipotentiary explanation of your thoughts!

When I say 'people' I think you know full well I mean concert-goers and record-buyers, not the general public.

Perhaps Mahler suffers disinterest like the niche composers in question, or perhaps not.

I think Richard B's point is that in the grand scheme of things, i.e. compared with the concert and record sales of some pop or rock artists, Mahler would be considered niche.

[RichardB]

When I say 'people' I think you know full well I mean concert-goers and record-buyers, not the general public.

No actually, I didn't realise that you'd defined "people" in that arbitrary way. I think it's as well to keep things in perspective here - that in the wider scheme of things Mahler is also what you call a "niche composer". Also, in the 21st century, "concert-goers and record-buyers" are by no means the only people who listen to music.

[mahlerfan]

No actually, I didn't realise that you'd defined "people" in that arbitrary way. I think it's as well to keep things in perspective here - that in the wider scheme of things Mahler is also what you call a "niche composer". Also, in the 21st century, "concert-goers and record-buyers" are by no means the only people who listen to music.

There was nothing random or whim about my reference to people, the reasoning is quite clear from the context. Moving on, in addition to concerts and purchasing recordings, there is by all means, radio and streaming. I can't think of anything else. I imagine Mahler figures quite highly in streaming and radio, and is certainly mainstream when it comes to festivals such as the world's largest, The Proms. I'd say that describing Mahler as a 'niche composer' is a distorted view.