Electronic Music

[Joseph K]

Thanks, that's very good to hear. If you've been listening to that and Stefan Prins, who indeed is a very interesting composer, you may like this:

https://soundcloud.com/r-barrett/duo-with-stefan-prins-kortrijk-17-september-2008

... in a break from rehearsals for another project, which I have to say didn't go so well, Stefan and I recorded this duo in an empty concert hall in Kortrijk which I found quite successful. While he's quite an expert in how to extract unexpected sounds from the inside of a piano, here he was using a completely electronic setup.

Thanks, Richard. Listening now.

[Joseph K]

Thanks, Richard. Listening now.

I greatly enjoyed this, BTW.

I'm listening to Stefan Prins' Not I again, this time the version taken from the album Augmented. I'm enjoying it more this time because, I think, I can't look and see what the guitarist is doing... encourages holistic listening, or as though the sounds were all made from one source... or something... Anyway, I intend to listen to this whole album (not sure if there are electronic parts to the other couple of pieces though)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfjKD1NIzDg&list=OLAK5uy_m2BJaUdhd9484QmqYtDO14xO7ETsk-08g

[Mandryka]

Is Not I a Beckett inspired piece? He says “after” the Beckett play but doesn’t expand on it!

https://www.stefanprins.be/eng/composesChrono/comp_2007_03.html

[Joseph K]

Anyway, I intend to listen to this whole album (not sure if there are electronic parts to the other couple of pieces though)...

I've just finished listening to the third and final track, Infiltrationen 3.0, which was quite good. A few thoughts I had while listening was that while this could be considered in parts to be quite ambient (though definitely not in other parts) the sounds were generally interesting enough to keep you engaged, even if they were floating around in space, so to speak. Oh yeah, and I'm fairly certain that every piece on this album has an electronic component. The long piece in the middle - Third Space - I didn't know what to make of last night, though I would be lying if I said I didn't relate it to certain visual arts like more contemporary forms of abstract expressionism and the like, at least in my minds eye - to that extent it is very interesting. I don't know that much contemporary music, but his sounds like the treatment of acoustic instruments has been informed by electronic music to quite a considerable degree.

Here's something new, some improv with a double bassist:

[Dave2002]

Does the "electronic" performer in improvisations like this simply use the electronic device (synthesiser) or does he (or - but not in this case - she) also add sampling into the whole process during the performance?

I'm guessing that would be quite hard to do - but even so it would be feasible. Arguably - apart from added complexity - it might allow new types of sounds.

[Joseph K]

Does the "electronic" performer in improvisations like this simply use the electronic device (synthesiser) or does he (or - but not in this case - she) also add sampling into the whole process during the performance?

The crucial words here, I think, are 'improvisations like this'. I'm not sure one can generalise about it - or if one can, I'm not the person to be doing it. I do know that when we asked RichardB upthread whether live processing was used on his recently released album with Evan Parker, the answer was no - so it seems 'simply' using an electronic device doesn't preclude interesting results...

[kindofblue]

This is stunning - many thanks Joseph K!

[RichardB]

Does the "electronic" performer in improvisations like this simply use the electronic device (synthesiser) or does he (or - but not in this case - she) also add sampling into the whole process during the performance?

I'm guessing that would be quite hard to do - but even so it would be feasible. Arguably - apart from added complexity - it might allow new types of sounds.

All of these things and many more are possible. Live sampling has been possible for more than a quarter of a century and is neither hard nor complex. The LiSa (Live Sampling) software, for example, was developed for experimental musicians in the early 1990s at STEIM (Studio voor electroinstrumentale muziek) in Amsterdam in the 1990s, and I used it from 1997 until a few years ago, when it was no longer being ported to new OSs because by then there were so many ways of doing what it had originally been designed to do, using readily available software or programming environments, that it wasn't worth supporting any more.

What the relationship between instruments and electronics might be in a piece like this is a creative decision rather than dependent on external circumstances. One of the most far-reaching innovations that flows from the advent of digital technology in music is that the roles of composer, performer and instrument-builder are no longer separate activities, and often become indistinguishable from one another. There are as many approaches as there are composers.

[Serial_Apologist]

All of these things and many more are possible. Live sampling has been possible for more than a quarter of a century and is neither hard nor complex. The LiSa (Live Sampling) software, for example, was developed for experimental musicians in the early 1990s at STEIM (Studio voor electroinstrumentale muziek) in Amsterdam in the 1990s, and I used it from 1997 until a few years ago, when it was no longer being ported to new OSs because by then there were so many ways of doing what it had originally been designed to do, using readily available software or programming environments, that it wasn't worth supporting any more.

What the relationship between instruments and electronics might be in a piece like this is a creative decision rather than dependent on external circumstances. One of the most far-reaching innovations that flows from the advent of digital technology in music is that the roles of composer, performer and instrument-builder are no longer separate activities, and often become indistinguishable from one another. There are as many approaches as there are composers.

While more recent technological advances have facilitated much greater and more immediate responsiveness, the potential has been in use at least since the mid-'60s. I have a Music In Our Time broadcast of Stockhausen's working group performing group member Johannes Fritsch's Partita for amplified viola, using contact mics, pentiometers, a ring modulator (I think) and tape delay system, the latter operated to spectacular effect by Stockhausen: "The idea is that while Johannes is playing this is recorded and played back after ten seconds. Mr Fritsch then responds to what he is hearing coming through one of two loudspeakers. I then react to what he is playing, according to the instructions in the score. I can make holes, perforate the sound. He then reacts to that. Thus a relationship is established between the performer and certain aspects of his own past - and sometimes the music becomes extremely polyphonic". You could say that again! Unusually for Stockhausian practices at that time (1967 - the other work was his own Prozession, which only I think used "clips" from earlier of his works, though there are anecdotes to the contrary!) Fritsch can be heard quoting the opening of Mahler 10 and from the Art of Fugue. I'm willing to bet the BBC no longer has these recordings.

[Dave2002]

I have heard one or two pieces live in concert with some sort of improvisational interaction between performers. I think one work may have been by Roger Smalley - though I really can't remember whether any form of sampling and replay was used.

The Stockhausen approach mentioned above is what I was thinking of. It would now be interesting to know if the broadcasts or recordings from those earlier times are still available, or if they can somehow be recreated by present day performers.

[Serial_Apologist]

I have heard one or two pieces live in concert with some sort of improvisational interaction between performers. I think one work may have been by Roger Smalley - though I really can't remember whether any form of sampling and replay was used.

The Stockhausen approach mentioned above is what I was thinking of. It would now be interesting to know if the broadcasts or recordings from those earlier times are still available, or if they can somehow be recreated by present day performers.

Possibly, although Stockhausen was very particular about accuracy regarding his music; and of course the ethos of that mid-sixties group was very special - as well as touring they virtually lived together - and for that reason alone would be very hard to replicate.

[RichardB]

While more recent technological advances have facilitated much greater and more immediate responsiveness, the potential has been in use at least since the mid-'60s. I have a Music In Our Time broadcast of Stockhausen's working group performing group member Johannes Fritsch's Partita for amplified viola, using contact mics, pentiometers, a ring modulator (I think) and tape delay system, the latter operated to spectacular effect by Stockhausen: "The idea is that while Johannes is playing this is recorded and played back after ten seconds. Mr Fritsch then responds to what he is hearing coming through one of two loudspeakers. I then react to what he is playing, according to the instructions in the score. I can make holes, perforate the sound. He then reacts to that. Thus a relationship is established between the performer and certain aspects of his own past - and sometimes the music becomes extremely polyphonic". You could say that again! Unusually for Stockhausian practices at that time (1967 - the other work was his own Prozession, which only I think used "clips" from earlier of his works, though there are anecdotes to the contrary!) Fritsch can be heard quoting the opening of Mahler 10 and from the Art of Fugue. I'm willing to bet the BBC no longer has these recordings.

Recording and playing back material during a performance goes back at least to Kagel's Transición I in 1959. Most of what Johannes Fritsch was doing in the 1960s was more or less obviously derived from Stockhausen's work, in this case Solo for melody instrument and feedback from 1966 which does exactly what you describe Fritsch's slightly later piece as doing. Several recordings of Solo have been made and released, the first with Vinko Globokar on trombone in 1969. As for Fritsch quoting from other musics, of course Stockhausen's Telemusik is built from fragments of "world music", Hymnen from national anthems, Opus 1970 from Beethoven, and so forth. After Johannes Fritsch left Stockhausen's group his own music became a lot more interesting.

While some members of Stockhausen's group also worked as his assistants, like the late Rolf Gehlhaar, I don't know where you get the idea that they were "virtually living together" because as far as I know this was not the case.

Many of their recordings are available from Stockhausen's label, having originally been released on LP by Deutsche Grammophon, including Prozession, Hymnen mit Solisten, Kurzwellen and Aus den sieben Tagen. I've been involved in quite a few performances of pieces Stockhausen wrote for his group. Obviously there's no question of replicating what they did, but there's also no question of being "inaccurate".

[Dave2002]

While some members of Stockhausen's group also worked as his assistants, like the late Rolf Gehlhaar, I don't know where you get the idea that they were "virtually living together" because as far as I know this was not the case.

This seems to have come out of nowhere ....

[Joseph K]

This seems to have come out of nowhere ....

He's responding to Serial Apologist?

[Mandryka]

While more recent technological advances have facilitated much greater and more immediate responsiveness, the potential has been in use at least since the mid-'60s. I have a Music In Our Time broadcast of Stockhausen's working group performing group member Johannes Fritsch's Partita for amplified viola, using contact mics, pentiometers, a ring modulator (I think) and tape delay system, the latter operated to spectacular effect by Stockhausen: "The idea is that while Johannes is playing this is recorded and played back after ten seconds. Mr Fritsch then responds to what he is hearing coming through one of two loudspeakers. I then react to what he is playing, according to the instructions in the score. I can make holes, perforate the sound. He then reacts to that. Thus a relationship is established between the performer and certain aspects of his own past - and sometimes the music becomes extremely polyphonic". You could say that again! Unusually for Stockhausian practices at that time (1967 - the other work was his own Prozession, which only I think used "clips" from earlier of his works, though there are anecdotes to the contrary!) Fritsch can be heard quoting the opening of Mahler 10 and from the Art of Fugue. I'm willing to bet the BBC no longer has these recordings.

I have a recording of the Fritsch partita on this CD

https://www.discogs.com/release/8279750-Johannes-Fritsch-Live-Elektronische-Musik-Music-With-Live-Electronics

The thing says it’s from 1965 - it’s interesting to hear all the quotation going on as early as that, though I guess Hymnen is a precedent. A tune from The Ring, and lots of things I can’t identify, maybe Mahler as you say. I’m listening to it now and I think it’s quite special actually, quite irresistible despite the very dated sound. Thanks for mentioning.