and finally...

[jayne lee wilson]

As I said, it isn't necessarily a question of the character of the movement (the "expressive function" as I awkwardly phrased it) but of how it's realised. I guess we aren't going to agree about the Tippett example I cited. I've listened to it many times over a long period, and, being a deep and longterm admirer of Tippett's work I always wanted to like it, and if it was going to "click" it would have done by now!
Does it?

Most of them do (finales offering contrast, see #29 above), even the greatest examples.....
And I think there are profound structural and emotional reasons for that. Against that background there are various types of exception..... see earlier posts...

[silvestrione]

I presume you would agree (and apologies if it's been said above) that not all finales, to be successful, need to take the work to 'a deeper and different level'. I've become very fond of Beethoven Sym 4 over recent years, and there I'm struck by the balance between the four movements, the equivalence, the complementarity. Then in Beethoven Op 131, the finale is a wonderful completion and fulfilment of the work.

[Nick Armstrong]

I think the finale of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony is utterly superb in so many ways, but I think the coda is excessively long. It is sometimes suggested that it needs to be as long as it is, in order to give structural balance, but (despite this being regarded by many as the greatest of all symphonies) I remain unconvinced.

Puts one in mind of course of this unforgettable turn by Dud:

[jayne lee wilson]

I presume you would agree (and apologies if it's been said above) that not all finales, to be successful, need to take the work to 'a deeper and different level'. I've become very fond of Beethoven Sym 4 over recent years, and there I'm struck by the balance between the four movements, the equivalence, the complementarity. Then in Beethoven Op 131, the finale is a wonderful completion and fulfilment of the work.

Is this addressed to Richard?
If to me then ....see earlier posts at length!

OP.131 is fascinating - a contrast and a perfect balance. Odd how few commentators note the close similarity between its main finale rhythm and that of Op.133.....

There's often a bustling, "back to life, back to reality" feel about symphonic finales. Great and shattering masterpiece though DSCH 4 is, the finales of 5 and 10 work better for me as symphonic conclusions. Though I think 15 is probably the greatest DSCH finale of all. Such imagination and integration.

Surely, exceptions work precisely because they are exceptions.....

Apologies for self-repetition etc....

[Richard Barrett]

Puts one in mind of course of this unforgettable turn by Dud:

Quite! But all that hammering at the end of Beethoven 5 is so consistent with the various jaw-dropping things that go on in that piece from its first moment onwards... my favourite music is music that astonishes me - every time I hear it - with what the human imagination is capable of.

[Nick Armstrong]

Quite! But all that hammering at the end of Beethoven 5 is so consistent with the various jaw-dropping things that go on in that piece from its first moment onwards... my favourite music is music that astonishes me - every time I hear it - with what the human imagination is capable of.

... including Dud’s expressions during the 1’30” coda in that performance!

[Richard Barrett]

... including Dud’s expressions during the 1’30” coda in that performance!

Brilliant. Not sure whether I prefer this or his Britten-Pears number.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Puts one in mind of course of this unforgettable turn by Dud:

I hadn't heard that one one

[Roslynmuse]

A few people have mentioned Sibelius 2; I've always felt that once we've launched into the finale and the huge tension of the preceding three movements has been released, the rest of the piece is redundant and in a sense he's filling in the right length of time required to finish the piece, but not necessarily with the right material. No such problems with any of the other Sibelius Symphonies, and No 5 seems to me to have one of the (relatively) few truly great final movements.

Tippett has also been mentioned, and for me the conclusions of Symphonies 3 and 4 (OK, a different issue here) balance and reflect what has gone before in a way that No 2 never quite does for me. The final section of The Mask of Time is genius, I think.

Ravel - personally, I've never had a problem with the G major concerto finale (the perfect foil to the 2nd mt, and from the bassoon solo onwards it is an unstoppable buildup of tension), but much as I adore Daphnis et Chloé the final danse générale always feels a bit forced - his admission that he had Rimsky-Korsakov's Scheherazade on the piano as he was writing it may have just been to pre-empt anyone making the obvious connection, but in his simpler language, Rimsky builds up to a far more shattering climax, although, unlike the Ravel, there is a long winding down afterwards. All of Ravel's other stage works seem to me to find closure in a much more satisfactory way - even the much-maligned Boléro.

Concertos - the one that comes to mind as having the most musically substantial and satisfying finale is the Britten Violin Concerto, although both Elgar Violin and Cello Concertos do it for me too. (Incidentally - it occurs to me that the brusque violence of the end of the Cello Concerto has something in common with the end of the Ravel Left Hand Concerto.) And writing about Elgar makes me think of the Symphonies and how both, in their different ways, provide a summing up of what has gone before.

One final thought - La mer...

[Serial_Apologist]

A few people have mentioned Sibelius 2; I've always felt that once we've launched into the finale and the huge tension of the preceding three movements has been released, the rest of the piece is redundant and in a sense he's filling in the right length of time required to finish the piece, but not necessarily with the right material. No such problems with any of the other Sibelius Symphonies, and No 5 seems to me to have one of the (relatively) few truly great final movements.

Yes, I've always felt this dissatisfaction with that ending to an otherwise fine work. What do others feel about Sibelius 7?

[Bella Kemp]

Yes, I've always felt this dissatisfaction with that ending to an otherwise fine work. What do others feel about Sibelius 7?

A work so utterly perfect as to be beyond discussion: a true realisation of the Platonic ideal.
Well, you did ask Serial!

[Richard Barrett]

La mer, yes. And Tippett 3. Daphnis isn't really in movements as such though, is it? Among concertos I would mention Berg. And Henze's second piano concerto whose finale is one of the most moving things I know.

[Ein Heldenleben]

I think the finale of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony is utterly superb in so many ways, but I think the coda is excessively long. It is sometimes suggested that it needs to be as long as it is, in order to give structural balance, but (despite this being regarded by many as the greatest of all symphonies) I remain unconvinced.

I sometimes wonder whether this ending was the inspiration for Malcolm Arnold's tongue-in-cheek "A Grand, Grand Overture" coda.

I think the real ‘problem’ with Beethoven 5 ‘s finale is the 30 bars of C major chords at the end (including the silent bars ) .
It’s over emphatic . In fact after a while I start hearing Bflat harmonics in there !

[ahinton]

I think the real ‘problem’ with Beethoven 5 ‘s finale is the 30 bars of C major chords at the end (including the silent bars ) .
It’s over emphatic

And then he does something uncomfortably similar at the close of the eighth symphony...

[Ein Heldenleben]

Yes indeed. I wonder why . It’s not as if tonally the fifth finale wanders all over the place