and finally...

[Richard Barrett]

Robert Simpson said we should play all 7 movements....! But in which order, d'you think?

I much prefer Beethoven's original thoughts on the form of this quartet - he may have changed his mind but I have nothing but admiration for the mind that conceived it with the fugue as last movement. The substitute is fine too and by no means inappropriate (it is Beethoven, after all) but in each individual performance one has to choose one or the other, whatever RS might have said, and for me the choice is fairly simple. The revised finale can stand on its own like Schubert's piano trio "Notturno" or Mahler's "Blumine"... the creative impulse is a complex and personal thing, and that goes for listening as much as anything else.

[Beresford]

Composers of the last 70 years or so seems to have a different attitude to last movements than in the classical or romantic eras - perhaps - although I don't know enough to generalise.
But even now there is still the issue of "how to make an end". Or just stop.

When I try to recollect pieces of music, it's very rarely the end I remember, but quite often the beginning.

[rauschwerk]

A recent Bal reviewer mentioned Ravel's 'finale problem'. One only has to listen to the Violin Sonata, the String Quartet or the G major piano concerto to realise that he had one. The thematic material in all these movements is pretty skimpy compared with what has gone before. On the other hand, the Toccata makes a magnificent conclusion to 'Le tombeau de Couperin'.

[cloughie]

A recent Bal reviewer mentioned Ravel's 'finale problem'. One only has to listen to the Violin Sonata, the String Quartet or the G major piano concerto to realise that he had one. The thematic material in all these movements is pretty skimpy compared with what has gone before. On the other hand, the Toccata makes a magnificent conclusion to 'Le tombeau de Couperin'.

La Valse, M Goose and Daphnis all sound pretty good!

[jayne lee wilson]

A recent Bal reviewer mentioned Ravel's 'finale problem'. One only has to listen to the Violin Sonata, the String Quartet or the G major piano concerto to realise that he had one. The thematic material in all these movements is pretty skimpy compared with what has gone before. On the other hand, the Toccata makes a magnificent conclusion to 'Le tombeau de Couperin'.

In a Suite of course, you are under less pressure to resolve or conclude in a style that makes symphonic sense across the previous movements....
There are some wonderful final movements to Suites - Enescu, Tchaikovsky or Dohnanyi to name just a few...and what about the glorious Brahms Serenades? I don't know more joyful pieces of music than the finales to those.......

"Suite".... "Serenade". The influence of the chosen nomenclature. Pressure's off to integrate or unify or make the more profound sense. Relax, enjoy yourself... (although this can happen in symphonies as well... see above...)

I would disagree about the Ravel G Major. The finale's moto perpetuo answers the stasis of the adagio's song. That skittishness, the cock-a-snook clarinets, the throwaway character, is just what we (or I at least ) need after the strange tonal and textural elaborations of the 1st movement (those remote, glistening harps, soundtrack to a distant planet...) and the prolonged, repetitious sound and mood of the serene 2nd.
Back in the real world, it puts that faraway calm and warmth in its place, and I do love a throwaway finale coda!

Robert Simpson said that his 11th Symphony ended "with a flick of the wrist"..... there's another clue....

But what about the Ravel D Major Concerto? Now there's a solution to the Finale Problem.... don't bother with one - keep evolving, then skip to cadenza and coda instead!

Always ask yourself: well, if I don't like this finale, what would I rather have in its place?

[Bella Kemp]

The final movement of Barber's violin concerto is just a load of blether tacked on to two of the most magnificent movements in the concerto repertoire.

[jayne lee wilson]

The final movement of Barber's violin concerto is just a load of blether tacked on to two of the most magnificent movements in the concerto repertoire.

.
My God!
I better go listen again...

[Bella Kemp]

There's quite a tale about the finale of Barber's Violin concerto, with the (somewhat conflicting) details here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viol...certo_(Barber)

Oh, I've just seen this after posting my comment. Thanks Pulcinella - most interesting

[Bella Kemp]

.
My God!
I better go listen again...

I'd love to hear a statement of defence from you Jayne!

[jayne lee wilson]

I'd love to hear a statement of defence from you Jayne!

The Barber slow movement may well have taken the Ravel G Major as its model, and the finale is.... a moto perpetuo.... see above....

See Gramophone Collection on the Barber, 4/2001....

[Richard Barrett]

Always ask yourself: well, if I don't like this finale, what would I rather have in its place?

I don't think listeners in general should feel it incumbent on them to reimagine whole movements of musical compositions when they don't like them! I don't think it's so much a problem of the expressive function of finales as described in various posts on this thread (although that can be a factor, as in the bombast that Shostakovich's finales are often prone to), but of their seeming to involve a certain lack of "inspiration" relative to the foregoing movements, as if the composer, being on the home straight, switches to autopilot. Another example that springs to mind is Tippett's Concerto for Orchestra - the first two movements are strange and wonderful and disconcerting, whereas the third has a dashed-off quality that doesn't approach the same level of individuality.

[jayne lee wilson]

I don't think listeners in general should feel it incumbent on them to reimagine whole movements of musical compositions when they don't like them! I don't think it's so much a problem of the expressive function of finales as described in various posts on this thread (although that can be a factor, as in the bombast that Shostakovich's finales are often prone to), but of their seeming to involve a certain lack of "inspiration" relative to the foregoing movements, as if the composer, being on the home straight, switches to autopilot. Another example that springs to mind is Tippett's Concerto for Orchestra - the first two movements are strange and wonderful and disconcerting, whereas the third has a dashed-off quality that doesn't approach the same level of individuality.

Not so much "reimagining whole movements" (!! - straw man alert) just considering what character of movement might have worked better....in the specific creative context. This why I said the Op. 130 is such a locus classicus for these considerations. And no-one needs imagine another alternative there! (Keen to hear other views on this one)...

Don't wish to repeat myself, but a finale has to offer some kind of contrast - doesn't it? The "classical model" tends to "do the hard work" in the first two movements so what comes after is a challenge, to find a balance. Scherzi often offer a respite, a divertissement, for a good reason (Haydn etc subvert this and yet fulfil it simultaneously, but that's another angle); and there's another discussion to be had about placing these 2nd in a 4-movement plan...which relates closely to the finale-function. See Bruckner 2, Mahler 6 etc.

"Inspiration" is a tricky, very subjective impression - I don't find the Ravel G Major lacking in this at all, as I said.....as for the Tippett - I adore that finale for the energetic contrast it offers and the strange eerie central section...and find the drum motto and the brass fanfares very memorable indeed. Utterly compelling end to a terribly ignored, under-recorded work. (Maybe Brabbins will do it soon...)

Often it is simply a case of working past an initial impression of difficulty or lack of memorability to see the finale as it really is, in its overarching contextual place: and above all: take it into your heart. In other words: listen again and again..then it may click. If a finale doesn't work for you, try listening to it alone a few times before recontextualising...

Tippett is playing now (Hickox).. it is a marvellous finale, and - the flute-led central episode! Remarkable....."inspiration" textual and melodic...then those last references-back in the quiet (cyclical and open-ended!) coda. Wonderfully fulfilling conclusion.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Always ask yourself: well, if I don't like this finale, what would I rather have in its place?

I think the finale of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony is utterly superb in so many ways, but I think the coda is excessively long. It is sometimes suggested that it needs to be as long as it is, in order to give structural balance, but (despite this being regarded by many as the greatest of all symphonies) I remain unconvinced.

I sometimes wonder whether this ending was the inspiration for Malcolm Arnold's tongue-in-cheek "A Grand, Grand Overture" coda.

[Richard Barrett]

Not so much "reimagining whole movements" (!! - straw man alert) just considering what character of movement might have worked better...

As I said, it isn't necessarily a question of the character of the movement (the "expressive function" as I awkwardly phrased it) but of how it's realised. I guess we aren't going to agree about the Tippett example I cited. I've listened to it many times over a long period, and, being a deep and longterm admirer of Tippett's work I always wanted to like it, and if it was going to "click" it would have done by now!

a finale has to offer some kind of contrast - doesn't it?

Does it?

[jayne lee wilson]

I think the finale of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony is utterly superb in so many ways, but I think the coda is excessively long. It is sometimes suggested that it needs to be as long as it is, in order to give structural balance, but (despite this being regarded by many as the greatest of all symphonies) I remain unconvinced.

I sometimes wonder whether this ending was the inspiration for Malcolm Arnold's tongue-in-cheek "A Grand, Grand Overture" coda.

Absolutely. No wonder those scherzo and finale repeats caused the famous, never-ending debate. One or the other or both and why? Phew.

Another locus classicus for function and balance.... (JLW - want them all played...every time)