Voice pitching and clefs

[Dave2002]

Recently I saw a comment that music for tenors should really be notated with a treble clef, with an 8ve lower mark. I don't know if this is true, or generally accepted. In other words people who sing in the tenor range are actually singing an octave lower than the written notes - if a standard treble clef is used.

In order to get a handle on this, I thought I'd try singing a few notes into my computer, and using audacity to record what I "sang" (rather groaned....) I was then able to do a crude spectral analysis. This wasn't particularly conclusive, as it looked as though the second harmonic was more significant than the first. Do we judge the note a singer is singing by the most prominent harmonic, or by the lowest one? I'm not absolutely sure, though I think we do identify the lowest of the major identifiable harmonics.

This is a test that singers, or indeed anyone, who has access to audacity can try. Run audacity, and record a few sung notes - or groans - or what you will. Then identify a section of the waveform which looks significant, and use the Analyze -> Plot Spectrum tool to produce a visible output. There might be slight variations in this depending which windowing function is used, but don't worry about that for the moment.

Then move one's cursor over the graph to identify the peaks.

I just did one a few minutes ago to check, and the results are:

First peak: F3 181 Hz
Second peak: F4 365 Hz (approx) - that's an octave up from the first
Third peak: C5: 524 Hz (about an octave up from middle C - C4 at 262 Hz)
Fourth peak: F5: 760 Hz
Fifth peak: A5 : 915 Hz
Sixth peak: C6 : 1067 Hz -approx two octaves up from middle C.

Some of the peaks are quite broad, and identifying the central frequency is not particularly accurate.

After that the peaks are less distinct, and not so obviously harmonically related.

Thus for that particular example, it seems that I was singing something which approximated an F major chord - F C A

I've still not resolved the notational issue re the conventions for tenor voices. I'm guessing that sopranos (usually female) actually do sing at notated pitch.

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_key_frequencies for frequencies corresponding to musical notes.

[cloughie]

Recently I saw a comment that music for tenors should really be notated with a treble clef, with an 8ve lower mark. I don't know if this is true, or generally accepted. In other words people who sing in the tenor range are actually singing an octave lower than the written notes - if a standard treble clef is used.

In order to get a handle on this, I thought I'd try singing a few notes into my computer, and using audacity to record what I "sang" (rather groaned....) I was then able to do a crude spectral analysis. This wasn't particularly conclusive, as it looked as though the second harmonic was more significant than the first. Do we judge the note a singer is singing by the most prominent harmonic, or by the lowest one? I'm not absolutely sure, though I think we do identify the lowest of the major identifiable harmonics.

This is a test that singers, or indeed anyone, who has access to audacity can try. Run audacity, and record a few sung notes - or groans - or what you will. Then identify a section of the waveform which looks significant, and use the Analyze -> Plot Spectrum tool to produce a visible output. There might be slight variations in this depending which windowing function is used, but don't worry about that for the moment.

Then move one's cursor over the graph to identify the peaks.

I just did one a few minutes ago to check, and the results are:

First peak: F3 181 Hz
Second peak: F4 365 Hz (approx) - that's an octave up from the first
Third peak: C5: 524 Hz (about an octave up from middle C - C4 at 262 Hz)
Fourth peak: F5: 760 Hz
Fifth peak: A5 : 915 Hz
Sixth peak: C6 : 1067 Hz -approx two octaves up from middle C.

Some of the peaks are quite broad, and identifying the central frequency is not particularly accurate.

After that the peaks are less distinct, and not so obviously harmonically related.

Thus for that particular example, it seems that I was singing something which approximated an F major chord - F C A

I've still not resolved the notational issue re the conventions for tenor voices. I'm guessing that sopranos (usually female) actually do sing at notated pitch.

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_key_frequencies for frequencies corresponding to musical notes.

I think most tenors know that they are singing an ocatave lower than what they are reading on the stave - my guess is that this was for convenience when writing TTBB to avoid loads of notes being written below the stave particularly in T2 parts, where notes often go below C3.

[crb11]

Recently I saw a comment that music for tenors should really be notated with a treble clef, with an 8ve lower mark. I don't know if this is true, or generally accepted. In other words people who sing in the tenor range are actually singing an octave lower than the written notes - if a standard treble clef is used.

Yes, this is how virtually all music for the tenor line is now presented. (The 8ve lower mark is frequently not there, but it's always assumed.) If tenor and bass are on the same stave, then it's in the bass clef.

[rauschwerk]

In order to get a handle on this, I thought I'd try singing a few notes into my computer, and using audacity to record what I "sang" (rather groaned....) I was then able to do a crude spectral analysis. This wasn't particularly conclusive, as it looked as though the second harmonic was more significant than the first. Do we judge the note a singer is singing by the most prominent harmonic, or by the lowest one? I'm not absolutely sure, though I think we do identify the lowest of the major identifiable harmonics.

The ear is almost always fooled, by the phenomenon of difference tones, into hearing the fundamental pitch, even if it contains very little energy.

[Dave2002]

I think most tenors know that they are singing an ocatave lower than what they are reading on the stave - my guess is that this was for convenience when writing TTBB to avoid loads of notes being written below the stave particularly in T2 parts, where notes often go below C3.

I have in the past sung in public a few times, but it never occurred to me that the notes I was trying to sing were in fact not the ones I was reading off the page.
I was only ever a very casual singer so that didn't come into my mind.

Yes, this is how virtually all music for the tenor line is now presented. (The 8ve lower mark is frequently not there, but it's always assumed.) If tenor and bass are on the same stave, then it's in the bass clef.

I can understand the convention that the sung pitches are actually an octave lower, but when did it become commonplace to use the 8ve lower mark?

Thanks to both of you for responding anyway.

[Serial_Apologist]

The ear is almost always fooled, by the phenomenon of difference tones, into hearing the fundamental pitch, even if it contains very little energy.

This was the argument often used to decry atonality.

[Richard Barrett]

There is a tenor clef, which looks like the alto clef used for viola but has the middle C on the fourth line from the bottom instead of the third, and this was used for tenor vocal music until a couple of centuries ago (you find it in Bach's manuscripts for example), although these days it's only used for higher passages in cello, bassoon and double bass parts. In older periods a whole bunch of different clefs was in use, which not infrequently (as in Monteverdi's Vespers) leads to uncertainty as to what actual pitch level was intended, so we can probably be grateful that almost all music uses only treble and bass clefs these days.

[esmondo]

I never quite get the hang of the disparity between men's and women's voices when they're singing what is supposedly the same pitch. For instance, a man singing a high G (3 ledger lines up in the bass clef) has an obviously different effect to a woman singing the G in the middle of the treble clef, especially if you have a (male) baritone voice like mine which can only hit that note with a high volume and a lot of effort. If you want men and women to sing in unison your best plan is probably to drop the men down an octave, where they seem better balanced. My wife often complains that songs written for men are "way too high" - when she hears that G, she feels that to match it she has to sing the G sitting on top of the treble stave. It's undoubtedly to do with the harmonics.

Other octave transpositions which don't sound right to me are the guitar and descant recorder.

[crb11]

I'd assume we probably have a music historian reading who knows the answer, but I'd assume some point in the 19th century. I've sung from a fair number of scores going back to the early 20th century and only ever seen the 8ve lower mark. Mozart (in the Requiem) used a tenor clef (as mentioned by Richard above), but I haven't found anything obvious online to narrow it down further.

[Dave2002]

I never quite get the hang of the disparity between men's and women's voices when they're singing what is supposedly the same pitch. For instance, a man singing a high G (3 ledger lines up in the bass clef) has an obviously different effect to a woman singing the G in the middle of the treble clef, especially if you have a (male) baritone voice like mine which can only hit that note with a high volume and a lot of effort. If you want men and women to sing in unison your best plan is probably to drop the men down an octave, where they seem better balanced. My wife often complains that songs written for men are "way too high" - when she hears that G, she feels that to match it she has to sing the G sitting on top of the treble stave. It's undoubtedly to do with the harmonics.

Other octave transpositions which don't sound right to me are the guitar and descant recorder.

I suspect that men and women are used to singing in "unison" when in fact they're often singing octaves apart.

[cloughie]

I suspect that men and women are used to singing in "unison" when in fact they're often singing octaves apart.

As indeed tenors and basses may.