Elgar

[LMcD]

Michael Kennedy on the Adagio of the 1st symphony: ... notable for its lack of anguished yearning and angst and ... marked instead by a 'benevolent tranquility'. This is never clearer IMVHO than in Boult's last Proms performance.

Leonard Slatkin isn't the only American conductor who seems , or seemed, to like conducting Elgar. I wasn't one of those who disapproved of the appointment of André Previn as Principal Conductor of the LSO, and he rewarded us with a wonderful Vaughan Williams cycle and critically acclaimed recordings of Elgar's symphonies. A few years ago I attended a performance of the 2nd by the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra, conducted by the estimable Marin Alsop.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Sorry, I’m sounding a bit like Suzie Klein.

I can assure you that you are not! If you were, you'd be telling us all what to listen for, and what to think, with an irritating smirk to boot.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

... but that is how most people from other places perceive it.

As Wikipedia says: citation needed. "Most people from other places"?? That's a very bold statement!

[LMcD]

Between October 2017 and May 2018 there were performances of works by Elgar in:
Toronto
Dublin
Bratislava
Reutlingen
Delft
Coruna
Hamburg
Barcelona
Amsterdam
Paris
Karlsuhe
...and Tacoma...

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

When I was growing up, I regretted the poor reputation of British composers since Purcell. Elgar was mention as a fine British composer, but I wasn't convinced, thinking it was just patriotic wishful thinking. I heard Barbirolli conduct the Enigma Variations in the Free Trade Hall, and (to my everlasting shame) was bored by it. Nimrod seemed to ramble on and on, with no sense of regular rhythm. But one day, I heard the Variations again on the radio, and things began to change. It was hearing the 1st symphony live with Maurice Handford conducting, at an "Industrial Concert", that made me an Elgar fanatic, and I've never looked back. I regretted the fact that you could buy scores of the complete works of many composers, but relatively little was generally available of Elgar's works. I craved a complete edition, and spoke to Dr Percy Young about it in the 1970s. He said it would be a major undertaking, as it would mean collecting every sketch. Although he didn't hold out much hope, he did eventually edit The Spanish Lady volume, when Novello began publishing the Elgar Complete Edition. (That started in 1981, and final completion - under "Elgar Works" is still at least five years away.)

[LMcD]

Footnote for our American readers: the Boston Symphony Orchestra has played the 2nd symphony at least 24 times and the Enigma Variations at least 120 times. (Having Colin Davis on the podium for a good number of years obviously helped!)

[richardfinegold]

May I respectfully suggest that you're not looking hard enough?
You only need to scroll down Presto Classical's list of 138 recordings of the cello concerto to see how many - some of them the recipients of numerous critical accolades and prizes - feature non-British orchestras/soloists/conductors.
Recent BBC Record Review/CD Review 'top picks' include Truls Mork and Pieter Wispelwey in the cello concerto, Pierre Monteux's 'Enigma Variations' and the Berlin Staatskapelle under Daniel Barenboim for the 1st symphony.
I don't think the Wand Of Youth Suites, In the South, the Piano Quintet, the Violin Sonata, the String Quartet, the music for wind band or the incidental music to King Arthur - to give just a few examples - can possibly be considered stuffy or pompous.
The Elgar Society's concert listing page includes numerous example of non-Brits apparently brave enough to take on his 'stuffy and pompous' works.
In January 2020, a concert in which Australian Simone Young conducted the New York Philharmonic included a well-received 'Enigma Variations'.
Leonard Slatkin's 'Enigma' and 'In the South' are both favourites chez nous.

Cello Concerto and enigma don't count. They have entered the pantheon. Most of the example of non brits feature these two pieces. The Symphonies, the Dream of Gerionymouss or whatever it's called, are solid snoozers that most non Brits avoid. In 40 years of Concert going outside of Enigma and the Cello Concerto you never, see Elgar on a program here. It's a guaranteed audience killer. Sorry

[LMcD]

Cello Concerto and enigma don't count. They have entered the pantheon. Most of the example of non brits feature these two pieces. The Symphonies, the Dream of Gerionymouss or whatever it's called, are solid snoozers that most non Brits avoid. In 40 years of Concert going outside of Enigma and the Cello Concerto you never, see Elgar on a program here. It's a guaranteed audience killer. Sorry

Goodness me! Your pronouncements are becoming - well, how can I put it - almost Presidential...

When you say 'here', are you referring to Chicago in particular or the USA in general? The Boston Symphony, who played the 2nd symphony more than once under Colin Davis, finished their 2017-2018 season with a performance of 'Gerontius' under Benjamin Zander, who isn't British as far as I'm aware. Or does 'Gerontius' not count either? Or perhaps the Boston Symphony don't count?

The San Francisco Symphony performed the 'Sea Pictures' in July 2019. Within the last 40 years (your cut-off point, not mine), they've also performed Alassio (In The South) and the Violin Concerto.

Elsewhere in the world, recent regrettable 'Covid cancellations' include performances of the Violin Concerto in Melbourne and the Introduction and Allegro in Sydney.

On page 453 of his seminal study 'Elgar und Sport in Amerika', published by Knieloch & Erdbeer in Leipzig in 1938, Wilhelm Schneeganshals advances the intriguing theory that Chicago's gridiron heroes are called the Bears because one of the founding committee's members was always humming the 5th and 6th pieces in the second 'Wand Of Youth Suite'. Presumably he heard it during one of Elgar's three trips to the States...

As for 'Gerionymuss' .... if we're going to start devising childish modifications of titles, perhaps we could have a look at Bernstein's 'Mess' ('bloated, bombastic ... and smug' according to the New York Times, but presumably constantly programmed throughout the world) or Steve Reich's 'Annoying Marimbas'.

(Why do I get the feeling that you'll find some reason to disqualify all of the specific examples which I offer in an attempt to counter your initial and continuing sweeping generalizations?)

[vibratoforever]

After Enigma, the Cello Concerto, and of course Pomp and Circumstance, I have tried hard to embrace the rest of his output but I don't like any of it. The admonitions to "forget the Britishness"
are hinting at an issue. Even in this day of globalization it's rare to encounter non British performers in his work. It's redolent of Victorian England at it's most stuffy and pompous, and yes, these may be fighting words here but that is how most people from other places perceive it.

Please share more with us your thoughts about how works like Sospiri and Introduction and Allegro are redolent of Victorian England.

You will not be able to do so, as you are spouting cliches.

I fully respect your personal opinion about Elgar's output and that it is not for you. I am the same about the bulk of music from the USA. But I am not going to attribute to it any false notions of Empire, pomposity or other such nonsense - its down to taste.

[LMcD]

Please share more with us your thoughts about how works like Sospiri and Introduction and Allegro are redolent of Victorian England.

You will not be able to do so, as you are spouting cliches.

I fully respect your personal opinion about Elgar's output and that it is not for you. I am the same about the bulk of music from the USA. But I am not going to attribute to it any false notions of Empire, pomposity or other such nonsense - its down to taste.

[Pabmusic]

Cello Concerto and enigma don't count. They have entered the pantheon. Most of the example of non brits feature these two pieces. The Symphonies, the Dream of Gerionymouss or whatever it's called, are solid snoozers that most non Brits avoid. In 40 years of Concert going outside of Enigma and the Cello Concerto you never, see Elgar on a program here. It's a guaranteed audience killer. Sorry

Well! I haven't appeared in this forum for a long time, but as soon as I take a look it's as if we're back in the 1940s or 50s.

Initial thoughts:

(1) You are factually wrong about the frequency of Elgar performances in the USA and elsewhere - as has been pointed out.

(2) You appear to speak for everyone outside the UK, and you talk of music that "most non Brits avoid". How do you know this? Would you please share your research with us.

(3) When it is pointed out to you that the Enigma and the Cello Concerto are regularly played, your reaction is that they "don't count". Well - so "most non Brits" are not avoiding them, at least.

(4) You easily fall back on adjectives like "pompous", as if the music is turgid. Yet it belongs comfortably within the same sound-world as Suk, Szymanowski, and Schmidt (to name a few). This is demonstrable - though, alas, not on such a forum as this.

Part of "the problem of Elgar" is with the history of his reputation in Britain, particularly from WW1 until the 1960s. This was not the fault (entirely) of the Cambridge anti-Elgar movement but they must shoulder some of the responsibility.

Beginning with Stanford (never really anti-Elgar, but certainly ambivalent) there was a definite move to belittle Elgar's standing, driven by the likes of Edward Dent, Cyril Rootham and Patrick Hadley. This was very influential in academic circles and lasted till the early 1960s. It was noticed worldwide - Dent published scathing attacks in German magazines, and this academic backlash was quoted in reviews of Barbirolli's attempts to introduce Elgar to New York audiences in the 1930s.

When that sort of thing happens there's a received impression that there must be something suspect about Elgar.

Add to that the fact that his music is not understated - it's "in your face" to some extent and cannot be ignored - it is hardly surprising that concert planners became cautious.

No-one can make you enjoy something you don't like (a problem I have with any Bruckner - entirely my own fault, of course) but claiming to speak for other people demands source material.

Anyway, what another person thought of Elgar is no evidence on its own of the music's worth, but here's Stravinsky in an impromptu speech in Liverpool on the day Elgar died "our paths diverged, but Elgar was a supremely great composer, of who the British people should be proud".

[teamsaint]

Well! I haven't appeared in this forum for a long time, but as soon as I take a look it's as if we're back in the 1940s or 50s.

Initial thoughts:

(1) You are factually wrong about the frequency of Elgar performances in the USA and elsewhere - as has been pointed out.

(2) You appear to speak for everyone outside the UK, and you talk of music that "most non Brits avoid". How do you know this? Would you please share your research with us.

(3) When it is pointed out to you that the Enigma and the Cello Concerto are regularly played, your reaction is that they "don't count". Well - so "most non Brits" are not avoiding them, at least.

(4) You easily fall back on adjectives like "pompous", as if the music is turgid. Yet it belongs comfortably within the same sound-world as Suk, Szymanowski, and Schmidt (to name a few). This is demonstrable - though, alas, not on such a forum as this.

Part of "the problem of Elgar" is with the history of his reputation in Britain, particularly from WW1 until the 1960s. This was not the fault (entirely) of the Cambridge anti-Elgar movement but they must shoulder some of the responsibility.

Beginning with Stanford (never really anti-Elgar, but certainly ambivalent) there was a definite move to belittle Elgar's standing, driven by the likes of Edward Dent, Cyril Rootham and Patrick Hadley. This was very influential in academic circles and lasted till the early 1960s. It was noticed worldwide - Dent published scathing attacks in German magazines, and this academic backlash was quoted in reviews of Barbirolli's attempts to introduce Elgar to New York audiences in the 1930s.

When that sort of thing happens there's a received impression that there must be something suspect about Elgar.

Add to that the fact that his music is not understated - it's "in your face" to some extent and cannot be ignored - it is hardly surprising that concert planners became cautious.

No-one can make you enjoy something you don't like (a problem I have with any Bruckner - entirely my own fault, of course) but claiming to speak for other people demands source material.

Anyway, what another person thought of Elgar is no evidence on its own of the music's worth, but here's Stravinsky in an impromptu speech in Liverpool on the day Elgar died "our paths diverged, but Elgar was a supremely great composer, of who the British people should be proud".

Good to hear from you, Pabs.
What a terrific post, a great read to start the day.

(Incidentally, if anybody knows of connections between Glazunov and Elgar, that would be interesting to hear more about.)

[Pabmusic]

Good to hear from you, Pabs.
What a terrific post, a great read to start the day.

(Incidentally, if anybody knows of connections between Glazunov and Elgar, that would be interesting to hear more about.)

I know of no direct connexion between Glazunov and Elgar, except that Alexander Siloti conducted the Enigma in St Petersburg in (?) 1904, and both Glazunov & Rimsky attended. Apparently they were impressed.

[LMcD]

[QUOTE=teamsaint;806015]Good to hear from you, Pabs.
What a terrific post, a great read to start the day.



I'm greatly heartened by your and Pabs's comments. I shall never 'get' Bach (shock, horror!), Wagner, Bruckner, Telemann or most of the output of 'minimalist' composers, but I also feel that's it not incumbent upon me to 'slag them off' - there's more than enough fine music to keep me going for however many years I've got left.

[teamsaint]

I know of no direct connexion between Glazunov and Elgar, except that Alexander Siloti conducted the Enigma in St Petersburg in (?) 1904, and both Glazunov & Rimsky attended. Apparently they were impressed.

A while ago I did find some suggestions that Elgar was well aware of Glazunov's music. I'll try to find the references when I have more time.