Sometimes one feels like giving up .....

[Dave2002]

https://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ReverseLookup/12544

Look at the manuscript of this piece by Mendelssohn! OK - not Beethoven, but this is getting silly - all written out by hand. Note the crossings out too.

All without the aid of synthesisers, printers, score notation software etc. OK - he probably had a piano or two.

[Joseph K]

What's getting silly?

[Dave2002]

What's getting silly?

Did you not realise that I put up what I assumed was a hand written manuscript of Mendelssohn's Octet, written when he was about 16? As I mentioned - he didn't quite get to the level of Beethoven, but to be able to write a thing like that down on paper - incredible. I probably wouldn't even be able to copy it, let alone compose a thing like that.

For completeness - sort of - https://youtu.be/9JTH4ZdJcjk

or even this - which should be very interesting for most of us - https://youtu.be/_0lSdJnKNX4 *****

[Joseph K]

but to be able to write a thing like that down on paper - incredible.

Many - most perhaps - of the most-well-known composers tended to write things down on paper, non? I find the following quite staggering (and as you can tell, this is just the string section!) -

[Bella Kemp]

A wonderful thread Dave - we do tend to forget just how extraordinary the act of great musical composition is. And I loved your response Joseph K - but please let us know what this piece is.

[Joseph K]

A wonderful thread Dave - we do tend to forget just how extraordinary the act of great musical composition is. And I loved your response Joseph K - but please let us know what this piece is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxbpF_aW4vU

[Simon Biazeck]

https://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ReverseLookup/12544

Look at the manuscript of this piece by Mendelssohn! OK - not Beethoven, but this is getting silly - all written out by hand. Note the crossings out too.

All without the aid of synthesisers, printers, score notation software etc. OK - he probably had a piano or two.

I would assume he had absolute pitch and could hear everything he was writing without recourse to a keyboard. It is surely a gift for a composer, but of course, it isn't the only way to write. THEN the hard work starts! FWIW, I write silently too but do not have pitch, so I must try things out. Needless to say, the results are not quite on the same level.

S.

[Serial_Apologist]

What a problem it would be had the human body to be pre-determined in its manner of operation by means of a score, before it could function!

[Dave2002]

I would assume he had absolute pitch and could hear everything he was writing without recourse to a keyboard. It is surely a gift for a composer, but of course, it isn't the only way to write. THEN the hard work starts! FWIW, I write silently too but do not have pitch, so I must try things out. Needless to say, the results are not quite on the same level.

S.

I’m not sure that composers have to have absolute pitch to be able to do this, though they must have pretty good pitch sense. Some composers seemed to play games by rewriting their pieces in a different key - possibly to make them more suitable for amateurs to play, or perhaps as an intellectual challenge, or perhaps for not quite so obvious copyright reasons. Sometime this might have been for the benefit of singers or string or other players who were to perform in a different instrumental combination. Sometime they might have deliberately made things harder. We don’t necessarily know in all cases why composers rewrote pieces in different keys.

Schumann certainly wrote some of his pieces with only a small change of pitch (key), though as a keyboard player his composing could have been done with the aid of the piano. Bach is an interesting example, as it appears that he wrote some instrumental parts in different keys, knowing that some of the players were used to playing at a different pitch. OK - that is a form of transposition, not only based on the instrument type, but also that the mean pitch the bands they played in were different - for example French musicians playing in/with German ** bands.

** though we would call them German, Germany as a country did not exist at that time.

[Joseph K]

I’m not sure that composers have to have absolute pitch to be able to do this, though they must have pretty good pitch sense. Some composers seemed to play games by rewriting their pieces in a different key - possibly to make them more suitable for amateurs to play, or perhaps as an intellectual challenge, or perhaps for not quite so obvious copyright reasons. Sometime this might have been for the benefit of singers or string or other players who were to perform in a different instrumental combination. Sometime they might have deliberately made things harder. We don’t necessarily know in all cases why composers rewrote pieces in different keys.

Schumann certainly wrote some of his pieces with only a small change of pitch (key), though as a keyboard player his composing could have been done with the aid of the piano. Bach is an interesting example, as it appears that he wrote some instrumental parts in different keys, knowing that some of the players were used to playing at a different pitch. OK - that is a form of transposition, not only based on the instrument type, but also that the mean pitch the bands they played in were different - for example French musicians playing in/with German ** bands.

** though we would call them German, Germany as a country did not exist at that time.

Different keys have different sound qualities - according to some - also, this is brought about by the particular nature of an instrument e.g. sharp keys sounding brighter on the guitar.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Different keys have different sound qualities - according to some - also, this is brought about by the particular nature of an instrument e.g. sharp keys sounding brighter on the guitar.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. The pitch of the key isn't the issue, as these have varied over time with different tuning standards. But the characteristics of the instruments almost certainly is. Even though I don't have absolute pitch, I can invariably recognise an orchestra playing an E flat chord. Also, my strange dislike of the key of B flat major may be connected with this.

[Simon Biazeck]

I’m not sure that composers have to have absolute pitch to be able to do this, though they must have pretty good pitch sense. Some composers seemed to play games by rewriting their pieces in a different key - possibly to make them more suitable for amateurs to play, or perhaps as an intellectual challenge, or perhaps for not quite so obvious copyright reasons. Sometime this might have been for the benefit of singers or string or other players who were to perform in a different instrumental combination. Sometime they might have deliberately made things harder. We don’t necessarily know in all cases why composers rewrote pieces in different keys.

Schumann certainly wrote some of his pieces with only a small change of pitch (key), though as a keyboard player his composing could have been done with the aid of the piano. Bach is an interesting example, as it appears that he wrote some instrumental parts in different keys, knowing that some of the players were used to playing at a different pitch. OK - that is a form of transposition, not only based on the instrument type, but also that the mean pitch the bands they played in were different - for example French musicians playing in/with German ** bands.

** though we would call them German, Germany as a country did not exist at that time.

Point taken. I wasn't suggesting it was necessary. It's just my unfounded hunch about Mendelssohn, I guess.

I had always assumed Britten had absolute pitch (something I heard at the Red House whilst studying at the Britte-Pears School, I think). He certainly wrote at the desk, (as did Herbert Howells!). Bridge drilled Britten to only write what he heard in his head. Britten claims to have pretty much written things in his head before sitting down to write and his walks were vital thinking time. Fascinating.

Are you a composer? What's your process?

S.

[Dave2002]

Are you a composer? What's your process?

No - not really. Very limited. A long while ago I used to write a few scraps down on paper. I also used to go for walks and imagined things in my head. That was a very long while ago.

Recently I’ve been exploring notation tools and DAWs and have discovered a few ways of creating “sound pieces”. Very little worthwhile has come of this so far, but it keeps me off the streets. I think it would be good if music students could be introduced to this technology - as aids to their work, but many people seem to work with the technology and not really have so much understanding - whatever that is - of music. All seems to be EDM and “beats” these days. Also - music as a product - to gain fame and riches ....

if you want to try I can pass on what I’ve found, but with no guarantees that this will work for anyone else.

Re Britten and absolute pitch, he is supposed to have had that, but commented that in later life his pitch centres had shifted. Someone else I know says this has happened to him in recent years.

[LeMartinPecheur]

Did you not realise that I put up what I assumed was a hand written manuscript of Mendelssohn's Octet, written when he was about 16? As I mentioned - he didn't quite get to the level of Beethoven, but to be able to write a thing like that down on paper - incredible. I probably wouldn't even be able to copy it, let alone compose a thing like that.

For completeness - sort of - https://youtu.be/9JTH4ZdJcjk

or even this - which should be very interesting for most of us - https://youtu.be/_0lSdJnKNX4 *****

Dave: I assumed that was what I'd find on your posted link but I didn't and perhaps Joseph K didn't either. Maybe our service provider(s) don't like Mendelssohn?

[Suffolkcoastal]

Point taken. I wasn't suggesting it was necessary. It's just my unfounded hunch about Mendelssohn, I guess.

I had always assumed Britten had absolute pitch (something I heard at the Red House whilst studying at the Britte-Pears School, I think). He certainly wrote at the desk, (as did Herbert Howells!). Bridge drilled Britten to only write what he heard in his head. Britten claims to have pretty much written things in his head before sitting down to write and his walks were vital thinking time. Fascinating.

Are you a composer? What's your process?

S.

I used to mainly compose at the piano, though when writing more contrapunctal music, it was largely working out me eye and ear combined and then played through again at the piano. I've found my ear has 'developed' considerably in the last few years. I've been able to pitch 'concert A' in my head for some time (the amount of Oboe As that are sharp when tuning seems to be more common, perhaps this is to do with the temperature of the concert hall and tuning slightly sharp or flat ensures the pitch stays stable through a piece). I can also now generally pitch the opening of a work from the score before I listen to it.
Nowadays I compose everything directly into score (including for orchestra) without sketching, composing straight through from beginning to end. I seem to be able now to hear everything in my head in advance, though not always the whole movement or work. Basically as I compose one section the next section seems to pop into my head and ultimately it all seems to work. I find I only have to make very limited changes after listening to the MIDI playback, sometimes none at all. I do though listen to a play back a few days or weeks later and decide to alter the odd bar or two, as I've found I've changed my mind or found I've thought of a better way to achieve what I want.