Music Lessons

[Pulcinella]

I think a central point regarding practice, repetition etc. is that in repeating an exercise or piece of music, one's physical self is being guided by one's ears and through practice physical technique is acquired through finding the most economical way of doing something.

I shall try to remember that the next time I'm doing some scales on the piano: I'll repeat the mantra 'This is very economical' when my left-hand gets all tied up and I try to sort it out, using recommended fingering, instead of 'This is ***** difficult and awkward'!

[LHC]

I shall try to remember that the next time I'm doing some scales on the piano: I'll repeat the mantra 'This is very economical' when my left-hand gets all tied up and I try to sort it out, using recommended fingering, instead of 'This is ***** difficult and awkward'!

This reminds me of the quote about the difference between amateur and professional sportspeople (said in relation to Johnny Wilkinson as I recall): an amateur is someone who practices until they get something right; a professional practices until they never get it wrong.

[Serial_Apologist]

I showed early promise at the piano, and at the age of 7 I was studying a Mozart sonata (K332 1st mvt) with a Mr Mehta of Peckham. He had had lessons with Solomon but neuritis prevented him from following a concert career. Looking back over nearly 70 years, it seems to me that he had the ideal combination of gentleness and rigour.

Sadly, that came to an end when my family moved abroad. I was so devastated by this turn of events that I refused to go near the piano for about a year. My lessons then resumed with a teacher in Kuala Lumpur, but pretty soon we returned to the UK and I was sent as a boarder to a highly academic but very unmusical school. I then had lessons with a visiting teacher who had been the school's music master and was a local organist and choirmaster. He wasn't much good. Having passed Grade 8, I expressed a wish to learn Bartok's Op.14 Suite. He refused to teach it, and indeed laughed at the music. I have often wished that I had had the balls to say I wanted another teacher!

I was no luckier with my woodwind teacher - a peri clarinettist who had been a professional orchestral player. He was irascible and didn't have much idea about teaching. However, he liked my piano playing and I got to accompany quite a few of his other pupils. That was a pleasure and I learnt a lot from it. For the last 40 years, I have devoted the bulk of my pianistic efforts to the art of accompaniment.

When I left school I had quite fallen out of love with the piano and didn't play at all for a few years. Eventually I re-thought my technique with the aid of books by Heinrich Neuhaus and Gyorgy Sandor (public libraries used to have such books 50 years ago!). But I never had any more actual lessons.

Interesting about Gyorgy Sandor because it was he who premiered the Bartok PC No 3 iirc; and I'm pretty sure Bartok said that it was useless practising the diatonic scales for playing his music because he didn't employ them. Or maybe it was my piano teacher who told me, "Yes, well, I'll get you some of the Microcosmos pieces; but, you know, it'll be useless you practising your major and minor scales!" I never did in any case, because I hated practising them , and arpeggios even more.

[Pulcinella]

Interesting about Gyorgy Sandor because it was he who premiered the Bartok PC No 3 iirc; and I'm pretty sure Bartok said that it was useless practising the diatonic scales for playing his music because he didn't employ them. Or maybe it was my piano teacher who told me, "Yes, well, I'll get you some of the Microcosmos pieces; but, you know, it'll be useless you practising your major and minor scales!" I never did in any case, because I hated practising them , and arpeggios even more.

That's encouraging: I've got a copy of Mikrokosmos, so maybe I'll do better with that!

[Serial_Apologist]

That's encouraging: I've got a copy of Mikrokosmos, so maybe I'll do better with that!

Different scales for different modes!

[Dave2002]

This reminds me of the quote about the difference between amateur and professional sportspeople (said in relation to Johnny Wilkinson as I recall): an amateur is someone who practices until they get something right; a professional practices until they never get it wrong.

[Joseph K]

This reminds me of the quote about the difference between amateur and professional sportspeople (said in relation to Johnny Wilkinson as I recall): an amateur is someone who practices until they get something right; a professional practices until they never get it wrong.

Yes. My jazz guitar teacher said I had to basically brainwash myself into learning jazz improvisation; I good analogy is with learning a second language: you have to be instant in the time it takes to summon all the vocab and grammar you need to say what you want; likewise all that ability required for jazz improv needs to become second nature - otherwise you're 'looking over your shoulder' and are not fluent (and even more in jazz improv, since you can't consult a dictionary in the middle of a solo etc.)

[Serial_Apologist]

Yes. My jazz guitar teacher said I had to basically brainwash myself into learning jazz improvisation; I good analogy is with learning a second language: you have to be instant in the time it takes to summon all the vocab and grammar you need to say what you want; likewise all that ability required for jazz improv needs to become second nature - otherwise you're 'looking over your shoulder' and are not fluent (and even more in jazz improv, since you can't consult a dictionary in the middle of a solo etc.)

The other way is the Ornette Coleman way...

[Joseph K]

I shall try to remember that the next time I'm doing some scales on the piano: I'll repeat the mantra 'This is very economical' when my left-hand gets all tied up and I try to sort it out, using recommended fingering, instead of 'This is ***** difficult and awkward'!

Funny thing is, I hardly practised scales while I played classical guitar. I couldn't see much point. To acquire technique, I just played etudes. But I can certainly see the point in practising scales for jazz guitar, since many jazz tunes do require you to know D flat and F sharp and scales, arpeggios and patterns from scales are basically fundamental to learning a jazz vocabulary. A big reason for returning once and for all to jazz guitar was that realisation that a big way I thought about music was absent in classical guitar - because I guess you could say that I actually enjoy scales and arpeggios - which jazz people are forced to be creative with in a way that is mostly absent in classical pedagogy, I mean there are so many scale patterns to learn, it's mind boggling.
These days, while I do focus on one scale for about half an hour a day, most my scale and arpeggio work is focused on linking up different scales and arpeggios continuously so they fit over the changes of a particular jazz song.

[Joseph K]

The other way is the Ornette Coleman way...

Harmelodic??

[cloughie]

I shall try to remember that the next time I'm doing some scales on the piano: I'll repeat the mantra 'This is very economical' when my left-hand gets all tied up and I try to sort it out, using recommended fingering, instead of 'This is ***** difficult and awkward'!

Particularly reverse minor scales!

[Dave2002]

The other way is the Ornette Coleman way...

Having mostly learned the classical way I've had to dig around a bit - https://jazz.fm/ornette-speaks-a-car...nette-coleman/ plus a few more links, such as this one - http://www.thejazzpianosite.com/jazz...improvisation/

[Pulcinella]

Particularly reverse minor scales!

I'm finding even D major (LH upwards) tricky, and am just putting it down to my hands being much less supple than they once were.

From a thumb (1) on D to fourth (4) finger on E, or in the alternative fingering 1 on E and 4 on F sharp, is now something my hand just doesn't like me trying to do, and I seem to stumble every time!

[Serial_Apologist]

Harmelodic??

My guessing is that Ornette's approach was pretty instinctive before he came up with the term, which he later "explained", as others have tried to. (See the earlier discussion on The Bored). Timbre, timing and articulation are as equally important as pitch choices, the character of the instrument and its singularity being germane here. This does not apply to the same extent when it comes to playing practice traditions in classical music after standardisation of instrument design and the idea of composer intention being written into scores circumscribed most individuality of expression to details of interpretation - apart from where freedom was permitted for cadenzas in concertos. Come to think of it (off the top of my head), this may have some bearing on why some jazz enthusiasts hold circumscriptively limiting views as to what instruments have a rightful place in the genre hierarchy.

[Serial_Apologist]

I'm finding even D major (LH upwards) tricky, and am just putting it down to my hands being much less supple than they once were.

From a thumb (1) on D to fourth (4) finger on E, or in the alternative fingering 1 on E and 4 on F sharp, is now something my hand just doesn't like me trying to do, and I seem to stumble every time!

I've always found sharps less "natural" (ahem) in terms of ease of hand movement than flats.