Musical plagiarism - how can it be defined/proved?

[Ein Heldenleben]

There's quite a lot of case law on musical copyright. The more famous examples are the short quote from O Sole Mio in the first act of Tosca which Puccini cut when it was pointed out to him. Puccini in turn sued Al Jolson for the latter's re-writing of E Lucevan Le Stelle in a major key for the song Avalon. More recent examples George Harrison's My Sweet Lord and the US Song He's So Fine which I think George lost. Led Zeppelin won their recent court case over Stairway To Heaven. In the end it's difficult to prove musical plagarism because although there are a very large number of possible permutations of thirteen notes there are many fewer that make musical sense . Think of the number of tunes that start with the four notes G -C-D-E (in C maj). That said if two tunes are note for note the same over 8 bars I think it's a pretty open and shut case. The usual approach would be a lawyer's letter and a settlement. The problem is that if you take on a big institition they can afford a lot more lawyer's letters and will almost certainly have an in house copyright team expert at delaying things.

[MrGongGong]

There's quite a lot of case law on musical copyright. The more famous examples are the short quote from O Sole Mio in the first act of Tosca which Puccini cut when it was pointed out to him. Puccini in turn sued Al Jolson for the latter's re-writing of E Lucevan Le Stelle in a major key for the song Avalon. More recent examples George Harrison's My Sweet Lord and the US Song He's So Fine which I think George lost. Led Zeppelin won their recent court case over Stairway To Heaven. In the end it's difficult to prove musical plagarism because although there are a very large number of possible permutations of thirteen notes there are many fewer that make musical sense . Think of the number of tunes that start with the four notes G -C-D-E (in C maj). That said if two tunes are note for note the same over 8 bars I think it's a pretty open and shut case. The usual approach would be a lawyer's letter and a settlement. The problem is that if you take on a big institition they can afford a lot more lawyer's letters and will almost certainly have an in house copyright team expert at delaying things.

I think it (like lots of things in the world) sadly comes down to the folks with lots of money getting what they want

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi2QhP7LOxI

"life is too short to get in f****** lawsuit with Andrew Lloyd F****** Webber" - Roger Waters ...

[Serial_Apologist]

It's suddenly struck me that there is a remarkable similarilty between "There'll Be Bluebirds Over the White Cliffs of Dover" and the subsidiary theme that appears towards the end of the finale of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony: G-G-F#-D-B-E-E-D-B-G-C-C-B-G-E-A-A-B - crotchets except for quavers between the F# and D, the B and the E, the D and the B, and the B and the G. Dah dah dut-dah dah dah dah dut-dah dah dah dah dut dah dah dah dah dah, or beats 5 and 6 in the repeated 8 beat sequence, but no second drop of a major third in the Beethoven. I think I've got that right!

[visualnickmos]

I don't know if anyone else thinks this - but RVW's London symphony, is remarkably similar in one part, to the music soundtrack for Lawrence of Arabia.

I think it should be the other way round, but you know what I mean !

[LHC]

I think it (like lots of things in the world) sadly comes down to the folks with lots of money getting what they want

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi2QhP7LOxI

"life is too short to get in f****** lawsuit with Andrew Lloyd F****** Webber" - Roger Waters ...

It also comes down to the potential value of any lawsuit. In this case I doubt that the royalties from the use of a piece of music in one episode of a drama series would be enough to pay the legal fees needed to bring an action of copyright infringement, and realistically the most that could be hoped for is an appropriate credit for the piece.

Of course, if Led Zeppelin had stolen your tune for their most famous track, the royalties could be substantial.

In the rock and pop world, with the prevalence of sampling, and the reuse of others’ material, record companies now have legions of lawyers to sort out any copyright issues before a track is released. When the Verve used a sample from The Rolling Stones in their song Bittersweet Symphony, they had to give Jagger and Richards a writing credit on the track, and all royalties were paid to the Stones’ former manager, Allen Klein. Although this was the Verve’s biggest hit, they didn’t get a penny from it themselves.

[Flay]

I don't know if anyone else thinks this - but RVW's London symphony, is remarkably similar in one part, to the music soundtrack for Lawrence of Arabia.

And not forgetting Bruckner who plagiarised Lawrence of Arabia for the first movement of his 6th symphony!

And I'm sure I can hear a bit of High Chaparral in there too

[Serial_Apologist]

The main theme of the Elizabethen Serenade, popular during the 1950s, and, as I recall, loved by some on here, was nicked from part of the main slow movement theme of Beethoven's 6th symphony.

I just knew there was some reason why I never liked it!

[visualnickmos]

And not forgetting Bruckner who plagiarised Lawrence of Arabia for the first movement of his 6th symphony!

And I'm sure I can hear a bit of High Chaparral in there too

[cloughie]

The main theme of the Elizabethen Serenade, popular during the 1950s, and, as I recall, loved by some on here, was nicked from part of the main slow movement theme of Beethoven's 6th symphony.

I just knew there was some reason why I never liked it!

...and Last Train to Clarksville nicked from Paperback Writer, and Meet me on the Corner from Streets of London and which came first Petrouchka or The Grand Old Duke of York, Beethoven’s Septet and ‘You can’t put your muck in our dustbin’.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I don't know if anyone else thinks this - but RVW's London symphony, is remarkably similar in one part, to the music soundtrack for Lawrence of Arabia.

I think it should be the other way round, but you know what I mean !

RVW's London Symphony has much in common with the Ben Hur soundtrack too.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Puccini buffs - have any of you ever heard an echo of the big tune in Fancuilla del West and ......nuff said

[MrGongGong]

Puccini buffs - have any of you ever heard an echo of the big tune in Fancuilla del West and ......nuff said

(allegedly)

[Ein Heldenleben]

(allegedly)

in fact its all over the net..
There's also a bit in the London Symphony which is very similar to ....nuff said
Its also very similar to a chromatic scale which is pretty well uncopyrightable...

[Serial_Apologist]

RVW's London Symphony has much in common with the Ben Hur soundtrack too.

I was once told by a music professor that the wonderful broad theme that comes a short way into the Wasps overture was regarded as siring the genre of landscape portraiture in music by many American movie composers: think of those widescreen themes used to accompany pictures of the Arizona desert at the start of a good few Westerns.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

in fact its all over the net..
There's also a bit in the London Symphony which is very similar to ....nuff said.

I take it you mean Phantom of the Opera.