Musical plagiarism - how can it be defined/proved?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I've just been watching the 3rd series of Lark Rise to Candleford on Britbox. One of the characters, Alfie, sings a "new song" which has a folky, modal feel. In the story, the words and melody affect the other inhabitants of the village in unusual ways.

The melody affected me in a quite different way. I composed it in 1973 and it was performed as part of a children's musical in the following year, in my first year of teaching. And there it was, emblazoned almost note for note as I wrote it 47 years ago. However, it's extremely unlikely that anyone present in its one performance would have remembered it and transcribed it in 2009. But it has led me to wonder how often coincidences like this occur. I know there have been law suits, with judgements going either way.

[MrGongGong]

But it has led me to wonder how often coincidences like this occur.

For a certain well-known chap who does musical theatre, I would guess that it happens every day

[Serial_Apologist]

I've just been watching the 3rd series of Lark Rise to Candleford on Britbox. One of the characters, Alfie, sings a "new song" which has a folky, modal feel. In the story, the words and melody affect the other inhabitants of the village in unusual ways.

The melody affected me in a quite different way. I composed it in 1973 and it was performed as part of a children's musical in the following year, in my first year of teaching. And there it was, emblazoned almost note for note as I wrote it 47 years ago. However, it's extremely unlikely that anyone present in its one performance would have remembered it and transcribed it in 2009. But it has led me to wonder how often coincidences like this occur. I know there have been law suits, with judgements going either way.

That must've been pretty galling, EA. Or are you equinanimous about having had your tune nicked?

[LeMartinPecheur]

EA: is it possible that someone at your FP, maybe a child performer, reproduced it exactly years later thinking it was a real folk-song? If there is a credited composer for the series, search their biography?

[MrGongGong]

I would be a bit miffed at this though.
It might be worth digging a bit
at least getting a credit would be nice IMV

[Quarky]

I've just been watching the 3rd series of Lark Rise to Candleford on Britbox. One of the characters, Alfie, sings a "new song" which has a folky, modal feel. In the story, the words and melody affect the other inhabitants of the village in unusual ways.

The melody affected me in a quite different way. I composed it in 1973 and it was performed as part of a children's musical in the following year, in my first year of teaching. And there it was, emblazoned almost note for note as I wrote it 47 years ago. However, it's extremely unlikely that anyone present in its one performance would have remembered it and transcribed it in 2009. But it has led me to wonder how often coincidences like this occur. I know there have been law suits, with judgements going either way.

You need some good legal advice, I think!

May be you wrote the item down somewhere? You still have your original document? Possible that someone had a sight of that document?

[Flay]

EA: is it possible that someone at your FP, maybe a child performer, reproduced it exactly years later thinking it was a real folk-song? If there is a credited composer for the series, search their biography?

https://m.imdb.com/name/nm0636608/?ref_=m_ttfcd_cr1

£££££

[Count Boso]

https://m.imdb.com/name/nm0636608/?ref_=m_ttfcd_cr1

£££££

Born London, age 59, educated Eton and Oxford, son of Here-Today-Gone-Tomorrow Sir John Nott. Of course, he might be quite intrigued to hear from Eine Alpensinfonie.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Nott

and, of course, quite off topic -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln3SpXXYTHY

[Flay]

Was it this song, Alpie?

https://youtu.be/T-SfqTwU9MY

[Flay]

Nott is a director of the Performing Right Society and the Mechanical Copyright Protection Society.

I am enjoying this thread

[Having said all this, it is a "familiar" type of tune. Dare I ask how you got the inspiration for it, Alpie?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Was it this song, Alpie?

https://youtu.be/T-SfqTwU9MY

The very one!

[Dave2002]

Born London, age 59, educated Eton and Oxford, son of Here-Today-Gone-Tomorrow Sir John Nott. Of course, he might be quite intrigued to hear from Eine Alpensinfonie.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Nott

and, of course, quite off topic -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln3SpXXYTHY

If it was him, then he might be interested ..

Nott is a director of the Performing Right Society and the Mechanical Copyright Protection Society.

[MrGongGong]

The very one!

That's crap melodeon miming n'all


A great banjo technique as well, the chords change without him moving his left hand at all

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

If it was him, then he might be interested ..

it seems that Julian Nott is just a year older than the children who participated in the performance, but there's no evidence that he lived on the Isle of Wight, which would have been a coincidence too significant to ignore.

[bluestateprommer]

I've just been watching the 3rd series of Lark Rise to Candleford on Britbox. One of the characters, Alfie, sings a "new song" which has a folky, modal feel. In the story, the words and melody affect the other inhabitants of the village in unusual ways.

The melody affected me in a quite different way. I composed it in 1973 and it was performed as part of a children's musical in the following year, in my first year of teaching. And there it was, emblazoned almost note for note as I wrote it 47 years ago. However, it's extremely unlikely that anyone present in its one performance would have remembered it and transcribed it in 2009. But it has led me to wonder how often coincidences like this occur. I know there have been law suits, with judgements going either way.

This thread put me in mind of this article from the Grauniad back from 2017, in the wake of a lawsuit a while back against Ed Sheeran:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2017/apr/13/has-pop-finally-run-out-of-tunes-ed-sheeran-plagiarism

Here's the particular bit that is of interest, quoting a chap named Joe Bennett based in America (hope you don't mind that ;) ):

'"In cases of melody-based plagiarism disputes, melodic probability can be used to ask: 'How likely are two melodies to come out identically, or very similarly, through coincidence?' A lot of people assume that identical melodies could be independently generated by separate songwriters, but you don’t need to get very deep into the maths to see why that wouldn’t be true.

'Bennett then goes very deep into the maths, proposing a scenario where he and I each decide to write a melody. “I might start on C and you might start on E – two of the seven notes in the major scale. The odds [against us choosing the same note] aren’t exactly one in seven, but you get the idea. Then you come to the second note: I might choose D, you might choose another E. So then we’ve got a seven to the power of two probability, and that’s just within two pitch choices.”

'Bennett then imagines a “3D maths puzzle” that combines pitch choices with other multipliers such as rhythmic placement (“which of eight possible placements in the bar might you choose?”) and harmonic context – the chords played underneath the note. “Not all melodic choices are equally pleasing, and there are pitch choices songwriters would naturally avoid, but the fact remains that when you multiply those variables up over any length of note chain – four, five, six notes – you’re into some pretty astronomical numbers,” says Bennett.

'“In the case of Sheeran’s 'Photograph', there’s a 16-bar sequence where the majority of pitches, the majority of rhythmic placements and almost all the harmonic context is the same as the equivalent section of 'Amazing' – there are 39 identical notes. The chance of that happening coincidentally and independently is almost zero. If I hear two songs where melodies are identical in pitch and rhythmic placement, over a few bars of music, my initial reaction is that it’s pretty likely there will be some element of copying. Whether that’s plagiarism becomes a legal question.”'

If this situation were ever to hit the court, obviously you would want to have all documentation from the time of your original music at the ready. If the original music manuscript is dated directly from the time, even better. I have no legal training at all, but this is the science-degree side of me speaking, in terms of having the evidence on your side on hand.