Notation - multiple time signatures

[Dave2002]

I'm not sure if I've ever seen this anywhere, though I'm sure someone's done it.
Basically, are there notations for parts of a score which sound together, but which are in different time signatures?

For example, consider a 6 bar section in 4/4 - that's 24 crotchets in length. Now consider an 8 bar section in 3/4 - that's also 24 crotchets in length. Those two sections could be played together.

If composers want to do this sort of thing, I believe some do write them both out together in the time signature which seems most obvious, but then put in accents or other markings, to indicate where the stresses and phrasing should occur for one or other part, but I wonder if any just write the two parts out in the different time signatures.

From the point of view of a single player there would be no difficulties - the parts would be perfectly playable, but a full score might look rather strange.

One could also consider different lengths - such as 30 crotchets - which could be 5 bars of 6/4 or 6 bars of 5/4 and 60 beats (crotchet or quaver), giving rise to (for example) 15 bars of 4/8, 12 bars of 5/8 and 10 bars of 6/8.

This is bound to have been done by some people, but I just haven't seen it written down.

[Joseph K]

Yes - Ives did it. Possibly Stockhausen too. Regarding Ives, I've seen excerpts from the score in an essay by Elliott Carter - though I don't have the book to hand, I think I've tidied it in to some nook or other in my room.

[Tony Halstead]

I'm not sure if I've ever seen this anywhere, though I'm sure someone's done it.
Basically, are there notations for parts of a score which sound together, but which are in different time signatures?

For example, consider a 6 bar section in 4/4 - that's 24 crotchets in length. Now consider an 8 bar section in 3/4 - that's also 24 crotchets in length. Those two sections could be played together.

If composers want to do this sort of thing, I believe some do write them both out together in the time signature which seems most obvious, but then put in accents or other markings, to indicate where the stresses and phrasing should occur for one or other part, but I wonder if any just write the two parts out in the different time signatures.

From the point of view of a single player there would be no difficulties - the parts would be perfectly playable, but a full score might look rather strange.

One could also consider different lengths - such as 30 crotchets - which could be 5 bars of 6/4 or 6 bars of 5/4 and 60 beats (crotchet or quaver), giving rise to (for example) 15 bars of 4/8, 12 bars of 5/8 and 10 bars of 6/8.

This is bound to have been done by some people, but I just haven't seen it written down.

In the 4th ( Final) movement of the 1st Symphony by the Dutch composer DANIEL DE LANGE, written in 1868, there are several passages where the wind and brass play in one 'large' time signature and the strings in smaller bar units. Therefore, the barlines don't line up vertically. It was quite a nightmare to conduct, but the excellent Netherlands Radio Chamber Orchestra (sadly disbanded a few years after this recording) played it superbly on the CD referenced below.
Maybe the DE LANGE symphony sounded the death-knell for the NRKO?

[Tony Halstead]

Sorry. I didn't seem to upload the link correctly.. it is

http://www.sterlingcd.com/catalogue/cds1068a.html

[Dave2002]

Sorry. I didn't seem to upload the link correctly.. it is
http://www.sterlingcd.com/catalogue/cds1068a.html

Thanks - that's really interesting.

[MrGongGong]

I have done it several times
What is tricky is that if your music needs a conductor then (unless they are someone used to this ) they get confused
If you are writing the score with software you need to use non-playing graphics

I've worked on pieces with young composer before where there has been no rehearsal before a recording session so a couple of times got them to write everything in 4/4 with accents rather than changing lengths of bars of multiple time signatures

Time signatures are (IMV) not always useful to have in the first place for many of the things one might want to make

and it's also important (again IMV) to realise that, with a few exceptions, the vast majority of Western "Classical" Music is at nursery level in terms of rhythm when compared to Carnatic or Hindustani musics

[ahinton]

and it's also important (again IMV) to realise that, with a few exceptions, the vast majority of Western "Classical" Music is at nursery level in terms of rhythm when compared to Carnatic or Hindustani musics

True, of course but neither calls upon the services of a conductor...

[MrGongGong]

True, of course but neither calls upon the services of a conductor...

Indeed
I guess my point was that the idea of having more than one time signature at the same time, and them "lining up" every so-many cycles seems a bit "odd" to many folks in the west when it is commonplace in other musics.

[Serial_Apologist]

If I were composing in multiple time signatures, I would go by Polly's rhythm method.

[Oakapple]

The last movement of Rimsky-Korsakov's Scheherazade is interesting. At bar 30 the time signature for all the instruments is given as 2/8 (6/16 3/8) so each player has to be prepared for any of those three.

At figure A the horns and violins are in 6/16 while the violas and bassoons are in 2/8. At figure F some are in 3/8 and some in 6/16. In a sense they are the same but that's how it is notated and those in 6/16 are playing 2 in the bar while the others are playing 1 to the bar.

[Boilk]

...are there notations for parts of a score which sound together, but which are in different time signatures?

This has been dealt with for centuries from the 14th (Guilliaume de Machaut) to the 20th (Messiaen, Hovhaness, etc.) using isorhythm - repeated rhythmic patterns unique to different parts in the music. If all are counting in the same tempo, no need to worry about barlines remaining in the same place for everyone (certainly assists the conductor!).

A mid-20th century extension of rhythmic independence within an ensemble is when each individual performer is repeating a rhythmic-cum-melodic phrase over and over without specified synchronisation to any other players - usually relying on a start/stop signal from the conductor. The first such examples seem to appear in Alan Hovhaness's music of the '40s and '50s (starting with his 1944 piano concerto Lousadzak) and in Europe probably first appearing in Lutoslawski's Jeux Venitiens (1961). In the case of said composers, they both used repeat marks either side of the recurring phrase.

[MrGongGong]

In the case of said composers, they both used repeat marks either side of the recurring phrase.

I tried that in a piece for an orchestra in London a while ago
The conductor (who will remain nameless here ) had conniptions when he saw it ... so I ended up writing it out for several pages

[Dave2002]

If I were composing in multiple time signatures, I would go by Polly's rhythm method.

Is that as opposed to using contra-puntal methods?

I think there are passages in Janacek's Glagolitic Mass - possibly in the first editions - which have complcated bars, which are difficult to conduct. Charles Mackerras is reported to have figured out ways to beat time through those bars, which I think basically leave some groups to do their own thing.

I suppose another issue if there are a lot of passages with different time signatures across multiple instruments, is that bar numbering goes completely awry - could cause great amusement or irritation, depending on one's point of view, and there could be chaos in rehearsals.

[Dave2002]

Somewhat shameful ... there's no excuse for not being able to conduct a notation that has now been around for over half a century.

Perhaps it was a variant, such as "repeat 473 times, followed by repeat 281 times"

Different first time and n-th time bars would make things more complicated, too.

[ardcarp]

Somewhat shameful ... there's no excuse for not being able to conduct a notation that has now been around for over half a century.

There are two issues here.

1. If a piece is meant always to hang together, the multiple time signatures will allow meeting points for everyone. (A very simple example would be when 3/4 is used against 6/8 where every bar-line synchronises.) No excuse for bad conducting there.

2. If a degree of aleatoric performance is intended, then a conductor will have to work out (and agree with his players) when to stop e.g. the first viiolins playing 500 repetitions of a phrase in 7/16 against the horns playing one 300 times in 11/16

A slight side issue is that I have always been fascinated by music written in two or more different keys. An early example is Elgar's There is Sweet Music where the T&B sing in one sharp while the S&A sing in four flats.