Passacaglia in Shostakovich Eighth Symphony

[richardfinegold]

The Fourth movement of this work has a long Passacaglia played by the low strings over which there are some brief intermittent wind solos. I recently obtained the Haitink/Concertgebouw recording, made in the excellent late analog Decca era, and the passacaglia is played in what for me is an unfamiliar manner. The previous recordings with which I am familiar generally treat sotto voce, almost as a gentle barcarolle. In this recording the passacaglia seems to veer in dynamics from pppp. to pp, and instead of conjuring images of limp exhaustion, as most recordings do, this recording conveyed a menace that I found most effective.
I wondered if this truly was an individualistic approach, or if I simply hadn’t noticed it before in my previous years of acquaintance with the piece. I then pulled out a Blu Ray of Andriss Nelsons conducting the same orchestra and to my ears the result is the more subdued, low background feel of the passacaglia, what for me is the standard technique , without the dynamic shadings that make the Haitink recording so effective (What is interesting is that on the podium, Nelsons seems to be trying to coax degrees of dynamic shading, even dropping to one knee and holding his hands close to the floor, but if one ignore all that I don’t hear the results in the playing).
As a non musician, I cannot read the score, and while I’ve tried to pull up a few references on line, most writing on the work doesn’t consider the passacaglia. So I'm curious if Haitink is obeying dynamic instructions that most Conductors ignore , or if Haitink is taking a Liberty, or if most recordings are actually doing what the Haitink recording is doing and the engineering doesn’t capture the subtle variations in dynamics. I have a few other versions that I can sample but I was curious what those more knowledgeable than me had to say

[Petrushka]

The Fourth movement of this work has a long Passacaglia played by the low strings over which there are some brief intermittent wind solos. I recently obtained the Haitink/Concertgebouw recording, made in the excellent late analog Decca era, and the passacaglia is played in what for me is an unfamiliar manner. The previous recordings with which I am familiar generally treat sotto voce, almost as a gentle barcarolle. In this recording the passacaglia seems to veer in dynamics from pppp. to pp, and instead of conjuring images of limp exhaustion, as most recordings do, this recording conveyed a menace that I found most effective.
I wondered if this truly was an individualistic approach, or if I simply hadn’t noticed it before in my previous years of acquaintance with the piece. I then pulled out a Blu Ray of Andriss Nelsons conducting the same orchestra and to my ears the result is the more subdued, low background feel of the passacaglia, what for me is the standard technique , without the dynamic shadings that make the Haitink recording so effective (What is interesting is that on the podium, Nelsons seems to be trying to coax degrees of dynamic shading, even dropping to one knee and holding his hands close to the floor, but if one ignore all that I don’t hear the results in the playing).
As a non musician, I cannot read the score, and while I’ve tried to pull up a few references on line, most writing on the work doesn’t consider the passacaglia. So I'm curious if Haitink is obeying dynamic instructions that most Conductors ignore , or if Haitink is taking a Liberty, or if most recordings are actually doing what the Haitink recording is doing and the engineering doesn’t capture the subtle variations in dynamics. I have a few other versions that I can sample but I was curious what those more knowledgeable than me had to say

Richard, the Haitink recording is actually a digital one, not late analogue, and was recorded in December 1982. The original LP is SXDL7621.

I'm a non-musician, non score-reader too but what you say is, I think, typical of what Haitink does and my guess is that it's exactly what the score indicates.

[richardfinegold]

Richard, the Haitink recording is actually a digital one, not late analogue, and was recorded in December 1982. The original LP is SXDL7621.

I'm a non-musician, non score-reader too but what you say is, I think, typical of what Haitink does and my guess is that it's exactly what the score indicates.

That’s interesting that recording is digital. Are all the Haitink/Shostakovich cycle digital? I thought the Fifth from that cycle was included in a “Decca Analog” box, and that is what made me assume that Eighth was analog as well. I will now have to point to this recording to help refute the “all early digital sucks” trope that prevails in Audiophile circles.
At any rate, what Haitink brings out with his treatment of the Passacaglia injects a new level of interest at a point where normally my interest begins to flag in this piece. If you have time listen to the Haitink recording and see what you think, I’d be interested in your impression.

[visualnickmos]

This is indeed, an interesting point. I was right now just going to post about 'Lockdown immersion listening' mentioning Shostakovich!

I will interrupt my current immersion (Shostakovich SQs - Rubio Quartet) and listen to Haitink's Shostakovich 8th - paying attention to Richard's observation. I will then compare with my recent Shostakovich immersion 8th (Tatarstan National Symphony Orchestra / Alexander Sladkovsky)
Good discussion, here......

[Petrushka]

That’s interesting that recording is digital. Are all the Haitink/Shostakovich cycle digital? I thought the Fifth from that cycle was included in a “Decca Analog” box, and that is what made me assume that Eighth was analog as well. I will now have to point to this recording to help refute the “all early digital sucks” trope that prevails in Audiophile circles.
At any rate, what Haitink brings out with his treatment of the Passacaglia injects a new level of interest at a point where normally my interest begins to flag in this piece. If you have time listen to the Haitink recording and see what you think, I’d be interested in your impression.

I'll listen to it again as soon as I can. The recordings of Symphonies 4, 10 & 15 are late analogue, the remainder digital. Some of the early digital ones did have a bit of an edge to them but later re-masterings will have ironed out any such problems.

I was present at an overwhelming performance of the 8th with Haitink and the Concertgebouw at the 1983 Proms and won't ever forget it.

[jayne lee wilson]

The Fourth movement of this work has a long Passacaglia played by the low strings over which there are some brief intermittent wind solos. I recently obtained the Haitink/Concertgebouw recording, made in the excellent late analog Decca era, and the passacaglia is played in what for me is an unfamiliar manner. The previous recordings with which I am familiar generally treat sotto voce, almost as a gentle barcarolle. In this recording the passacaglia seems to veer in dynamics from pppp. to pp, and instead of conjuring images of limp exhaustion, as most recordings do, this recording conveyed a menace that I found most effective.
I wondered if this truly was an individualistic approach, or if I simply hadn’t noticed it before in my previous years of acquaintance with the piece. I then pulled out a Blu Ray of Andriss Nelsons conducting the same orchestra and to my ears the result is the more subdued, low background feel of the passacaglia, what for me is the standard technique , without the dynamic shadings that make the Haitink recording so effective (What is interesting is that on the podium, Nelsons seems to be trying to coax degrees of dynamic shading, even dropping to one knee and holding his hands close to the floor, but if one ignore all that I don’t hear the results in the playing).
As a non musician, I cannot read the score, and while I’ve tried to pull up a few references on line, most writing on the work doesn’t consider the passacaglia. So I'm curious if Haitink is obeying dynamic instructions that most Conductors ignore , or if Haitink is taking a Liberty, or if most recordings are actually doing what the Haitink recording is doing and the engineering doesn’t capture the subtle variations in dynamics. I have a few other versions that I can sample but I was curious what those more knowledgeable than me had to say

Kondrashin, Sanderling(**), Mravinsky...?

Only Russian conductors/orchestras really get the DSCH point here (or anywhere...).....in this passacaglia all of them palpably convey - spiritual and physical, urban and national, collective exhaustion.... their 8/(iv)s have a coiled, ashen tension and - I wouldn't say menace but - a dark retreat into the soul's almost empty recesses before.... that tiny, gentle ray of light steals in, like a cold, grey dawn, at the start of the finale....the coil relaxes, the palm of the hand opens....the bassoon speaks of hope...

In other words, following the two explicitly violent, war-depicting scherzi of (ii) and (iii) - 8/(iv) represents: the stage after destruction....at such an extreme, as you survey the smoking ruins of the cities, villages and farms, the bodies around you, you have to ask yourself, individually and collectively: who am I? who are we? Have we anything, anything at all, left to recover with.....?

The horn call in the passacaglia is so, so haunting...I often think of it even now, when I don't listen to DSCH very much.... one of the greatest of all Horn Calls, in any symphony, any city, any country, anywhere...

***
(**) Born in East Prussia, emigrated to USSR 1936, Leningrad PO conductor 1941-60... an honorary & spiritual Russian. Understood DSCH as well as anyone.
He lived it, heard it, played it. He attended Mravinsky's rehearsals for the 8th' premiere....in the blood, in the very bones...

The interviews with Sanderling in his Berlin SO recordings of DSCH 1,5,6,8,10 15 are remarkable. Of the 8(iv) he says:
"The 4th movement is the most introspective of this symphony, and maybe of his entire output. It shows the author, the individual, in a state of solitary helplessness."

But DSCH' music is always about more than the individual; it comes from the agonised Russian history, its people and its culture. Like Stravinsky in Le Sacre, DSCH is the vessel through which their voices pass.

[richardfinegold]

This is indeed, an interesting point. I was right now just going to post about 'Lockdown immersion listening' mentioning Shostakovich!

I will interrupt my current immersion (Shostakovich SQs - Rubio Quartet) and listen to Haitink's Shostakovich 8th - paying attention to Richard's observation. I will then compare with my recent Shostakovich immersion 8th (Tatarstan National Symphony Orchestra / Alexander Sladkovsky)
Good discussion, here......

I will be interested in Petrushka and your opinions after you have a chance to sample the Haitink. I am jealous that Petrushka had that concert experience, but right now I begrudge any concert experience...I had tickets to Mauricio Pollini in the last 3 Beethoven Sonatas for Sunday (sigh). I heard Previn lead the CSO around the same time in what may have been my first acquaintance with the piece

[richardfinegold]

Kondrashin, Sanderling(**), Mravinsky...?

Only Russian conductors/orchestras really get the DSCH point here (or anywhere...).....in this passacaglia all of them palpably convey - spiritual and physical, urban and national, collective exhaustion.... their 8/(iv)s have a coiled, ashen tension and - I wouldn't say menace but - a dark retreat into the soul's almost empty recesses before.... that tiny, gentle ray of light steals in, like a cold, grey dawn, at the start of the finale....the coil relaxes, the palm of the hand opens....the bassoon speaks of hope...

In other words, following the two explicitly violent, war-depicting scherzi of (ii) and (iii) - 8/(iv) represents: the stage after destruction....at such an extreme, as you survey the smoking ruins of the cities, villages and farms, the bodies around you, you have to ask yourself, individually and collectively: who am I? who are we? Have we anything, anything at all, left to recover with.....?

The horn call in the passacaglia is so, so haunting...I often think of it even now, when I don't listen to DSCH very much.... one of the greatest of all Horn Calls, in any symphony, any city, any country, anywhere...

***
(**) Born in East Prussia, emigrated to USSR 1936, Leningrad PO conductor 1941-60... an honorary & spiritual Russian. Understood DSCH as well as anyone.
He lived it, heard it, played it. He attended Mravinsky's rehearsals for the 8th' premiere....in the blood, in the very bones...

The interviews with Sanderling in his Berlin SO recordings of DSCH 1,5,6,8,10 15 are remarkable. Of the 8(iv) he says:
"The 4th movement is the most introspective of this symphony, and maybe of his entire output. It shows the author, the individual, in a state of solitary helplessness."

But DSCH' music is always about more than the individual; it comes from the agonised Russian history, its people and its culture. Like Stravinsky in Le Sacre, DSCH is the vessel through which their voices pass.

As usual, thoughtful well reasoned.
I largely agree with your statement that Russian conductors generally treat the passage as a collective exhaustion. My point is that to my ears, Haitink, while still conveying the “spent“ nature of the Passacaglia, also adds a degree of malevolence that I haven’t perceived elsewhere. To me it conjures a mass grave in the Arctic, with frozen corpses from the Gulag being pitched in, with the observer’s vantage point being at some distance and the sights and sounds obscured by snowy mists. Under Haitink’s baton, those mists seem to be saying that we will bury you without a trace and erase any record of your existence. Needless to say my imagery is completely subjective.
I listened to the same passage from Barshai and Kitaenko (both from Cologne) and Solti with the CSO, none of whom achieve what Haitink does, and that’s it for my collection

[jayne lee wilson]

As usual, thoughtful well reasoned.
I largely agree with your statement that Russian conductors generally treat the passage as a collective exhaustion. My point is that to my ears, Haitink, while still conveying the “spent“ nature of the Passacaglia, also adds a degree of malevolence that I haven’t perceived elsewhere. To me it conjures a mass grave in the Arctic, with frozen corpses from the Gulag being pitched in, with the observer’s vantage point being at some distance and the sights and sounds obscured by snowy mists. Under Haitink’s baton, those mists seem to be saying that we will bury you without a trace and erase any record of your existence. Needless to say my imagery is completely subjective.
I listened to the same passage from Barshai and Kitaenko (both from Cologne) and Solti with the CSO, none of whom achieve what Haitink does, and that’s it for my collection

I bought the Barshai set with as much excitement as anyone.... I know it well & soon came to feel it was very overrated... it doesn't come near to the intensities which the above mentioned in #6 achieve in such an intuitive way.

Not heard the Kitaenko in DSCH, but often in other Russia rep (including the stunning-sounding Prokofiev which I admired so much, but has been surpassed in idiomatic intensity/rhythmic life by both Gergiev and Karabits) I tend to feel similarly... just a little too safe and smooth, lacking that inner darkness and fire you hear in Mravinsky, Rozh and especially Kondrashin. Sanderling is more considered and the BSO play beautifully but that inner vision is there. His DSCH is just as true to the spirit as his Sibelius. He had a remarkable rapport with that orchestra.

[gradus]

I will be interested in Petrushka and your opinions after you have a chance to sample the Haitink. I am jealous that Petrushka had that concert experience, but right now I begrudge any concert experience...I had tickets to Mauricio Pollini in the last 3 Beethoven Sonatas for Sunday (sigh). I heard Previn lead the CSO around the same time in what may have been my first acquaintance with the piece

Richard, I'd disappointed too but have you heard the DG recording of the last 3 sonatas? I've only managed to listen to the last sonata on Spotify and was quite taken aback by the oddly four-square way Pollini plays the lovely melody of the Arietta. Maybe it's just me?

[richardfinegold]

Richard, I'd disappointed too but have you heard the DG recording of the last 3 sonatas? I've only managed to listen to the last sonata on Spotify and was quite taken aback by the oddly four-square way Pollini plays the lovely melody of the Arietta. Maybe it's just me?

I bought his new CD of the last 3 Sonatas as a compensation to myself for having to miss the Concert. After playing it twice, I concur with you. In truth, I don’t find that much has changed since his traversal of these pieces 40 odd years ago. Pollini strives for an objectivist approach a sort of “Just the notes, ma’am” that does Rob this ethereal music of some poetry. M.P. remains my favorite Pianist, but well, with every great Artist with a strong interpretive profile there are going to be times when their vision fails to convince

[Pulcinella]

Richard:

You've prompted me to dig out my recording (in the mid-price Decca Ovation series, copyright 1993, though still with production date 1983, so I assume not remastered) of the Haitink to see if my ageing ears can hear what you do.
I don't have a score (come back, ferney; I bet you do!), but found this in Michael Steinberg's book The Symphony (which you may well have).

Here [slow movement] the ten-measure bass, which begins with energy and and concludes with a broadly composed-in retard [sic, whatever that means!] is first played by itself in a marvelously scored decrescendo, and then repeated eleven times. What Shostakovich achieves in the seventh and last variations with his combination of flutter-tongued flutes and muted, plucked strings is one of the eeriest moments in all orchestral music.

[richardfinegold]

Richard:

You've prompted me to dig out my recording (in the mid-price Decca Ovation series, copyright 1993, though still with production date 1983, so I assume not remastered)) of the Haitink to see if my ageing ears can hear what you do.
I don't have a score (come back, ferney; I bet you do!), but found this in Michael Steinberg's book The Symphony (which you may well have).

Here [slow movement] the ten-measure bass, which begins with energy and and concludes with a broadly composed-in retard [sic, whatever that means!] is first played by itself in a marvelously scored decrescendo, and then repeated eleven times. What Shostakovich achieves in the seventh and last variations with his combination of flutter-tongued flutes and muted, plucked strings is one of the eeriest moments in all orchestral music.

I have the Steinberg book and recall that the discussions can be a bit pithy so I suspect you have quoted it in full. I tired of the Eighth a bit and listened to the disc featuring Six and Twelve. Six is one of my favorites and here Haitink disappointed me a bit; the great slow movement doesn’t have poignancy that Bernstein and many others achieve. Otoh I normally can’t sit through a full recording of 12, feeling it’s a pale rehash of Eleven, but this one had me engaged.
I think Haitink can sometimes do for Shostakovich what he does for Mahler: he moves both composers from a certain pigeon hole and more into the general arena. When he and Bernstein were issuing competing Mahler cycles in the sixties, long before the explosion in Mahler appreciation, Bernstein had some detractors who thought he was to idiosyncratic (basically, to Jewish) and Haitink tended to emphasize the continuity with the rest of the Austro-German canon. With Shostakovich as Jlw stated we tend to give preference to Russian conductors, but Haitink I believe was the first non Russian conducted complete cycles, and to my ears he moves the music out of a Russo centric ghetto.

[Petrushka]

Haitink's Shostakovich recordings came at an extraordinarily opportune moment. The Soviet Union was still very much present with the persecutions of Sakharov and Rostropovich etc., together with the Cold War tensions a daily feature of the news. Then in 1979 Solomon Volkov's controversial Testimony was published and all of a sudden Shostakovich was seen in a completely new light. With the defection of Maxim Shostakovich in 1981 listening to DSCH's music was like reading your daily newspaper and a tremendously exciting time.

I was in Moscow and Leningrad in 1979, just 4 years after the composer's death, heard the Fifth Symphony on a freezing winter's night in the Great Hall of the Moscow Conservatoire and it was an unforgettable atmosphere. Our party met a man who remembered the Stalin years and the German invasion in 1941.

40 years on, it's easy enough to forget a lot of this background but those Haitink recordings, the first non-Russian cycle and in very fine sound, were highly influential in the West's discovery of this great music which had too often been dismissed as Soviet propaganda and so on. JLW is quite correct about the Russian orchestras recordings of Shostakovich. They knew and understood but Haitink's set shouldn't be underestimated.

[Bryn]

Haitink's Shostakovich recordings came at an extraordinarily opportune moment. The Soviet Union was still very much present with the persecutions of Sakharov and Rostropovich etc., together with the Cold War tensions a daily feature of the news. Then in 1979 Solomon Volkov's controversial Testimony was published and all of a sudden Shostakovich was seen in a completely new light. With the defection of Maxim Shostakovich in 1981 listening to DSCH's music was like reading your daily newspaper and a tremendously exciting time.

I was in Moscow and Leningrad in 1979, just 4 years after the composer's death, heard the Fifth Symphony on a freezing winter's night in the Great Hall of the Moscow Conservatoire and it was an unforgettable atmosphere. Our party met a man who remembered the Stalin years and the German invasion in 1941.

40 years on, it's easy enough to forget a lot of this background but those Haitink recordings, the first non-Russian cycle and in very fine sound, were highly influential in the West's discovery of this great music which had too often been dismissed as Soviet propaganda and so on. JLW is quite correct about the Russian orchestras recordings of Shostakovich. They knew and understood but Haitink's set shouldn't be underestimated.

The Hungarian, Jenő Blau, made very fine recordings of the 1st Symphony and Cello Concerto, the latter, admittedly, with a dissident Russian cellist.