Synthesisers

[Dave2002]

I found this short quote from a book from 2014 by Chris Norhtdurfter - which has been recommended

Now that we know what all the different parts of a drum kit are called ... to achieve this we use the latest cutting-edge technology from 1982, the so-called Musical Instrument Digital Interface protocol, or MIDI for short.

I empathise with the comment re figuring out Midi - as I've only just started getting it to work, both with DAWS, notation software and occasionally real hardware - keyboards.

In my investigations I have also come across other tools, such as sequencers and synthesisers. Re synthesisers I've gradually figured out that there have been a few common analogue varieties, and then more recently digital ones, and now many synthesisers are provided as software plug-ins for DAWs. The digital ones could be more or less exact replicas of previous hardware devices, while the analogue ones might be a reasonable approximation, as it seems that the techniques and mathematics behind these are now understood much better than they were 40 years ago.

In those 40 years, pop and rock music mostly passed me by, and I'm not particularly looking to delve into those genres of music in depth, but clearly some musicians were playing with synthesisers, doing live gigs, and making records. Were they just knob twiddlers, or did some of them know what they were doing?
I'm sure that many of them did, though some might not have done ...]

I can understand quite easily a keyboard - similar to a piano - even if it does generate synthesised electronic sounds, but what am I supposed to do with interfaces like this, or this, or this? I really don't know.





Just as the HitIt book might bring me up to date with drum beats, is there anything similar for the various forms of synthesisers, which I have missed out on over the last half century? Any other potentially useful sources?

[MrGongGong]

https://documentaryheaven.com/what-the-future-sounded-like/

http://www.synthtopia.com

you really need to get your internet fixed............ Dave

https://www.thonk.co.uk/shop/push-turn-move/

and so on and so on and so on and so on

There's as much about synthesisers on the internet as there is porn (or so i've heard)

[Dave2002]

https://documentaryheaven.com/what-t...-sounded-like/

http://www.synthtopia.com

you really need to get your internet fixed............ Dave

That's what I have you for - to modify one of mrs d's phrases.

Thanks, anyway.

There's as much about synthesisers on the internet as there is porn (or so i've heard)

I don't want a lifetime's reading material, just enough to know that 52 knobs are probably far too many.

Oops - I shouldn't have written that with your porn comment ......

[MrGongGong]

I was supposed to go and play with this a while ago
but sadly the virus postponed it
but i'm sure Richard will tell you all you need to know ....




52 ?
Naaaah that's nothing like enough

[Dave2002]

I was supposed to go and play with this a while ago
but sadly the virus postponed it
but i'm sure Richard will tell you all you need to know ....




52 ?
Naaaah that's nothing like enough

OK. Ooh! Does size matter too?

[MrGongGong]

OK. Ooh! Does size matter too?

Sometimes one needs lots of oscillators, filters and modulation possibilities

[Dave2002]

Seems there are people who fix old models, too - https://youtu.be/_poihkLM5Go

Yamaha vintage - and very expensive - synthesiser. Yamaha CS-80.

[MrGongGong]

Seems there are people who fix old models, too - https://youtu.be/_poihkLM5Go

Yamaha vintage - and very expensive - synthesiser. Yamaha CS-80.

Yamaha ?
Naaah

EMS is what you want

https://marktowers.net/2019/06/02/r10-synthi-100-heritage-project/

[Dave2002]

Yamaha ?
Naaah

EMS is what you want


https://marktowers.net/2019/06/02/r1...itage-project/

Maybe.

I tried to find out more about controlling synthesisers (analog - sic) by Midi, hence https://www.midi.org/articles-old/the-history-of-midi

Were the earliest uses of midi to link piano style keyboards to synthesisers to produce individual notes, or did they also do knobs? Possibly midi could always do both, thus allowing an analog synth to be driven by knobs (or even sliders) remotely. Presumably now midi allows many forms of control - maybe it always did.

Perhaps there really is a point in having lots of knobs, either directly coupled to hardware, or virtual knobs connected by midi to “real” hardware - which of course could be realised by a virtual digital system. It’s not only keyboards ...

[MrGongGong]

This is worth a read

https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674016170

Moog became successful largely because he put keyboards on his instruments and was then able to sell them in music shops
The origins of synthesiser systems aren't really "note-based" music.

[Dave2002]

This is worth a read

https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674016170

The origins of synthesiser systems aren't really "note-based" music.

I suspect that strictly the origins of MIDI are not really “note based” either, though maybe it just evolved. Perhaps, like other systems, it arose to some extent from bottom up development, as people discovered what they felt they needed, and what techniques seemed to work.

[MrGongGong]

I suspect that strictly the origins of MIDI are not really “note based” either, though maybe it just evolved. Perhaps, like other systems, it arose to some extent from bottom up development, as people discovered what they felt they needed, and what techniques seemed to work.

No
MIDI is completely note based
Based on note numbers from 00 to 127 (big piano keys)
and other things are "controllers"

So the fundamental thinking is that music is composed of "notes" which have pitches assigned to them and everything else is subservient to that.

Working with MIDI can be a real pain if you aren't thinking about music in that way. One of the reasons why some folks use OSC or other means of control

(Leigh Landy is more eloquent about this than I am)

[Dave2002]

No
MIDI is completely note based
Based on note numbers from 00 to 127 (big piano keys)
and other things are "controllers"

So the fundamental thinking is that music is composed of "notes" which have pitches assigned to them and everything else is subservient to that.

Working with MIDI can be a real pain if you aren't thinking about music in that way. One of the reasons why some folks use OSC or other means of control

(Leigh Landy is more eloquent about this than I am)

So how does a knob on a midi controller work, then? Surely these can be used to adjust the values on either a physical knob or a virtual knob on a synthesizer. The data sent is just small packets of numeric values (as you suggest, typically 0-127), and how those are interpreted is going to be hardware specific. An analogue synthesizer can work just with knobs, sliders, or other analogue input devices. Digital inputs could also be used to provide a coarser resolution for values than an analogue input, but for many purposes might be good enough. I don't see why such input devices couldn't communicate via Midi.

Are there not midi controlled synthesizers, or do they all have to be set up in advance to note values? That’s what I used to think, but now I think possibly otherwise.

[MrGongGong]

So how does a knob on a midi controller work, then? Surely these can be used to adjust the values on either a physical knob or a virtual knob on a synthesizer. The data sent is just small packets of numeric values (as you suggest, typically 0-127), and how those are interpreted is going to be hardware specific. An analogue synthesizer can work just with knobs, sliders, or other analogue input devices. Digital inputs could also be used to provide a coarser resolution for values than an analogue input, but for many purposes might be good enough. I don't see why such input devices couldn't communicate via Midi.

Are there not midi controlled synthesizers, or do they all have to be set up in advance to note values? That’s what I used to think, but now I think possibly otherwise.

Knobs usually send controller information
Keys usually send note on/off messages

Yes, they can communicate via MIDI

And yes there are thousands of MIDI controlled synthesisers

There are default values and the like
(and GM sounds etc)

BUT

MIDI is based on notes not sounds

[Dave2002]

.....

BUT

MIDI is based on notes not sounds

Indeed - I agree. However, if the specification of the synthesizer is known - and this should be particularly true with digital ones - do correct me if I'm wrong - if all the data is the same in the Midi data, then the effect "should" be well defined, and hence the sound should be too.

OK - I think you are going to correct me ....

If the system is deterministic, then the audio should be well defined, so if a sound engineer or composer generates some sounds and keeps the Midi data, then the audio produced (which could be checked by recording it as an audio file as it is generated) "should" be the same. However, if the delays and other factors in the sound generation are non deterministic - which they may be - due to delays etc, then even using exactly the same code and data could lead to different sounds. That is an area where you will have much more experience to date that I have, and perhaps you sometimes use Midi, and sometimes use audio files - and sometimes both - for that very reason.

My expectation would be that if one had access to a high quality synthesizer - either digital, analogue or virtual (hosted inside another system) it would be good to use that instead of possibly lower quality audio files, but otherwise it might be better to work with higher quality audio files, than a lower quality synthesizer working off "near equivalent" Midi data. As I wrote in the previous paragraph, sometimes it may be desirable to use both audio and midi representations, and also sometimes it might be useful to have lower quality audio files as well as high quality ones.

A lot will depend on what stage in the sound production these data components are required. Perhaps, in a similar way to video editing, sometimes lower quality audio files are used either for speed of production, or to minimise storage space, or to minimise data transfer requirements, or to provide a "prototype" version for auditioning, but at the production stage the highest available audio data will be used. Clearly live situations are more demanding in that respect than off-line sound development.