Abbe Liszt

[Joseph K]

Actually I have changed my mind about reading a biography of Liszt. His life was very interesting and he lived in very interesting times. I am appreciative of some of the biographies suggested

Indeed! Glad you have changed your mind.

[kuligin]

exactly. I don't deny that he was a Great Musician. A little of his music goes a long way for me, I do like the water imitiation-proto-Debussy sounding stuff, and the Opera paraphrases are ok until three minutes when they start to wear thin. The Hungarian Rhapsodies are best enjoyed as background to a Bugs Bunny cartoon The Dante Sonata and Faust Symphony I can't abide, but his one movement Piano Sonata I can trot out about once a year.
However, as silvestrione notes, the quality of his Music wasn't my interest here. One can have religious feelings, without taking vows and (supposedly) becoming celibate. The little snippets of biography that I have encountered about Liszt during this period suggest that he was more of a Cafeteria Catholic, that he liked to say Mass and give benedictions, but other Priestly obligations, including celibacy, he openly flaunted. I could be wrong, and sorry, I have a reading list (Liszt?) that is pretty long and includes biographies of several Composers that I view of greater merit that I have been meaning to get to, so I am being lazy and picking the brains of those more knowledgeable than myself. I guess I should hunt out the Ken Russel movie if for no other reason than a good laugh, sorely needed in these times

In fact Liszt was not ordained a priest or even a deacon so certainly could not say Mass or be a Confessor, he was ordained with the minor orders, such as being a reader, which were at that time given immediately before ordination as a deacon.

[Nick Armstrong]

Like you, Richard, Liszt's music is a blind spot for me..... Seems to be far tooo showy, and I'm not motivated to explore further.

Same here, for the past 40 years.

I know I mentioned this years ago, but having been a neighbour of Tamás Vásáry, I have had plenty of opportunity to revise the opinion... The first time I mentioned my blind spot, he was suitably appalled and hastened to my piano to play one of the Consolations which I have to say was lovely - but only because it sounded like Chopin who I’ve always loved.

I acknowledge his pioneering contribution to music (e.g. orchestral tone poems) but I’m afraid I too often find the gestures, the melodies etc, banal... I far prefer what his successors (Wagner, Strauss, Rachmaninov et al.) did, building on his foundations.

That said, I’ve long liked the Conlon/Rotterdam version of the Legend “St François-de-Paule walking on the waves”...

[richardfinegold]

Same here, for the past 40 years.

I know I mentioned this years ago, but having been a neighbour of Tamás Vásáry, I have had plenty of opportunity to revise the opinion... The first time I mentioned my blind spot, he was suitably appalled and hastened to my piano to play one of the Consolations which I have to say was lovely - but only because it sounded like Chopin who I’ve always loved.

I acknowledge his pioneering contribution to music (e.g. orchestral tone poems) but I’m afraid I too often find the gestures, the melodies etc, banal... I far prefer what his successors (Wagner, Strauss, Rachmaninov et al.) did, building on his foundations.

That said, I’ve long liked the Conlon/Rotterdam version of the Legend “St François-de-Paule walking on the waves”...

That sums it up for me too. I realize that many of the criticisms that are leveled at Liszt perhaps can be applied to Chopin, but Chopin to me is indispensable, whereas if all of Liszt output were to somehow disappear it wouldn’t trouble me much; yet I acknowledge that he was tremendously important historically.

[BBMmk2]

If you find Liszt a blind spot, why not try some of his better known piano music. I find never boring.

[Joseph K]

If you find Liszt a blind spot, why not try some of his better known piano music. I find never boring.

Quite! Naysayers should start with this:

[gurnemanz]

As I reported above, I was a nay-sayer for decades but now belatedly realise what I was missing. Louis Lortie playing Années de Pèlerinage on a beautiful-sounding Fazioli grand for Chandos is one of my favourite piano recordings.

[Jonathan]

I would say that Liszt is my favourite composer, bar none and I have studied his music for about 30 years. The Abbe Liszt is certainly a very different character to the earlier, more virtuosic one - although when his father died, he spent days lying on the floor praying so there was always a religious side to his nature. At this time. he was very keen on the idea of becoming a monk and his mother had to plead with him not to join a monastry (see Alan Walker's volume 1).

He took the 4 minor holy orders in 1865 - 6 years after the death of his son Daniel, 3 years after the death of his daughter, Blandine following childbirth and 4 years after his marriage plans were thwarted, causing him much upset. I personally think that he was depressed and perhaps sought solace in religion. There are numerous examples throughout Walker's books of his self critical nature - e.g. "a few leaves had been added to the Cypresses - they are no doubt just as boring and redundant as the earlier ones" (he was talking about the Cypress pieces from the 3rd Annees de Pelerinage) plus his refusal to do any sort of self publicity (how unlike Wagner!) - warning his English pupil Walter Bache not to play any of his works in public as they will not be well received. The ongoing quarrel with Wagner (over Cosima's elopment and conseqent rejection of Catholicism) in the 1860s were also a source of upset for him. These were later resolved but I think all of these things, taken into consideration had a profound effect on his mental wellbeing and also his composing style. The later works are progressively stranger as time goes on - a suitable analogy would be comparing the early Beethoven string quartets to the late ones - obviously, composers styles alter as they age and Liszt's changes were perhaps more pronounced than most.

Having read extensively about Liszt, I find myself feeling rather sorry for him in his last years - the book (also by Alan Walker) which is a translation of Lina Schmaulhasen's diary covering the last 2 weeks of his life make for extremely sad and distressing reading. The fact is, he did not want to die in Bayreth, didn't want to be buried there and Cosima more a less left him quietly to die as she was so wrapped up in the arrangements for the Bayreth Festival.

That was a long post for me!

[richardfinegold]

I would say that Liszt is my favourite composer, bar none and I have studied his music for about 30 years. The Abbe Liszt is certainly a very different character to the earlier, more virtuosic one - although when his father died, he spent days lying on the floor praying so there was always a religious side to his nature. At this time. he was very keen on the idea of becoming a monk and his mother had to plead with him not to join a monastry (see Alan Walker's volume 1).

He took the 4 minor holy orders in 1865 - 6 years after the death of his son Daniel, 3 years after the death of his daughter, Blandine following childbirth and 4 years after his marriage plans were thwarted, causing him much upset. I personally think that he was depressed and perhaps sought solace in religion. There are numerous examples throughout Walker's books of his self critical nature - e.g. "a few leaves had been added to the Cypresses - they are no doubt just as boring and redundant as the earlier ones" (he was talking about the Cypress pieces from the 3rd Annees de Pelerinage) plus his refusal to do any sort of self publicity (how unlike Wagner!) - warning his English pupil Walter Bache not to play any of his works in public as they will not be well received. The ongoing quarrel with Wagner (over Cosima's elopment and conseqent rejection of Catholicism) in the 1860s were also a source of upset for him. These were later resolved but I think all of these things, taken into consideration had a profound effect on his mental wellbeing and also his composing style. The later works are progressively stranger as time goes on - a suitable analogy would be comparing the early Beethoven string quartets to the late ones - obviously, composers styles alter as they age and Liszt's changes were perhaps more pronounced than most.

Having read extensively about Liszt, I find myself feeling rather sorry for him in his last years - the book (also by Alan Walker) which is a translation of Lina Schmaulhasen's diary covering the last 2 weeks of his life make for extremely sad and distressing reading. The fact is, he did not want to die in Bayreth, didn't want to be buried there and Cosima more a less left him quietly to die as she was so wrapped up in the arrangements for the Bayreth Festival.

That was a long post for me!

Thank you. The post was not over long, if anything it raises the interest level and I could have had you go on a lot more. At any rate hopefully I will eventually fill in my lacunae.

[Nick Armstrong]

his better known piano music.

That’s what put me off! (And those damned piano concertos )

[jayne lee wilson]

That’s what put me off! (And those damned piano concertos )

You're a fan of Les Siècles, right? Not get on with the marvel I mentioned in #8?

https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/franz-liszt-dante-symphonie-orpheus-maitrise-de-caen-les-siecles-francois-xavier-roth/3149028030020

Really stunning album...wonderful cut&thrust to texture/dynamic (better Dante than Haselböck, I felt...)..... only wish they'd do more unusual rep....

[Jonathan]

That’s what put me off! (And those damned piano concertos )

Try the early A minor "Malediction" concerto for piano and strings or the "De Profundis" work as an antidote to the other 3.

[Nick Armstrong]

Interesting suggestions, thanks. And jayne I had indeed missed your Siècles recommendation (and yes, I’m a fan of that orchestra)

[richardfinegold]

Quite! Naysayers should start with this:

Did Paik record the Prokofiev PCs on Naxos a while back?

[gurnemanz]

Having read extensively about Liszt, I find myself feeling rather sorry for him in his last years - the book (also by Alan Walker) which is a translation of Lina Schmaulhasen's diary covering the last 2 weeks of his life make for extremely sad and distressing reading. The fact is, he did not want to die in Bayreth, didn't want to be buried there and Cosima more a less left him quietly to die as she was so wrapped up in the arrangements for the Bayreth Festival.

This reminded me of the shock I received a few years ago when I read the account of Liszt's last days in the Cosima biography "Herrin des Hügels" by Oliver Hilmes. It was all new for me. I've just re-read the relevant pages. When Liszt arrived in Bayreuth in the summer of 1886 "tired and broken down", according to Felix Weingärtner, he was looked after by Weingartner, Lina Schmalhausen and several other devoted pupils of his. They played whist with him and even managed to take him to a performance of Tristan. His condition got markedly worse the next day (no connection, I'm sure) - he was red-faced and constantly coughing. Liszt realised himself that he had picked a bad time and place to die. Cosima was too preoccupied with the Festival to take care of him properly. He was staying in the house of Oberförster Fröhlich right next to the Wagner villa, Wahnfried. (The Chief Forester's house is a small Liszt museum now and well worth a visit). Cosima sent him beef and cutlets to eat which he couldn't chew because of the state of his teeth, so Lina knocked up some broth for him to keep him going. To everyone's amazement Cosima announced that she would be taking over sole care of her father and threw out Lina and her friends. Lina was reduced to hiding behind a bush in the garden and observing the ensuing bizarre goings-on through the window. When Liszt finally died, Lina claims to have seen Cosima sit down on a chair at the end of the bed and promptly nod off. Cosima inflicted a further humiliation on the abbé by not allowing him the last Catholic rites.

It got worse ... It was high summer and the corpse soon began to stink. The furious house owner, Fröhlich, lost his patience and announced that he would summon the Police and get them to take it away. Eventually Liszt's mortal remains were transported to Wahnfried in a hand cart. The funeral was half-hearted even though Bruckner was on hand to play the organ. When some of Liszt's students asked him why he hadn't played something by the deceased composer he said he didn't know anything, so had improvised on Parsifal. Felix Mottl reported that at the elegant post-funeral evening party thrown by Cosima in Wahnfried, the smell of the dead Liszt still lingered in the hallway.