Early music - composing

[Dave2002]

I have been looking at early scores of works by Orlando Gibbons, such as this one - Fantasia V from the set a3 - http://ks.imslp.net/files/imglnks/us...parts_1620.pdf

I wondered how the composers of the period actually created their works. Here the piece is available as a set of parts - Altus, Tenore, Basso. I assume that the composer would have written out a score in some format, and then had the parts transcribed, but it is not obvious that that is what they did. After all, if they had skills similar to Mozart's they may have simply written out the parts, and not created a score.

There are no bar lines, so it is not at all clear how the piece was actually written. Despite my comment re Mozart above, I feel sure that most musicians would have wanted some form of score in order to simplify their creative activity. Getting alignment of the rhythmic patterns in this piece is hard enough even with bar lines!

Does anyone know of good recordings of these works, and are any available in common online versions, such as Youtube, Qobuz etc.?

[Serial_Apologist]

I have been looking at early scores of works by Orlando Gibbons, such as this one - Fantasia V from the set a3 - http://ks.imslp.net/files/imglnks/us...parts_1620.pdf

I wondered how the composers of the period actually created their works. Here the piece is available as a set of parts - Altus, Tenore, Basso. I assume that the composer would have written out a score in some format, and then had the parts transcribed, but it is not obvious that that is what they did. After all, if they had skills similar to Mozart's they may have simply written out the parts, and not created a score.

There are no bar lines, so it is not at all clear how the piece was actually written. Despite my comment re Mozart above, I feel sure that most musicians would have wanted some form of score in order to simplify their creative activity. Getting alignment of the rhythmic patterns in this piece is hard enough even with bar lines!

Does anyone know of good recordings of these works, and are any available in common online versions, such as Youtube, Qobuz etc.?

While conceited enough to comment without owning to enough knowledge about these things, I am prompted to dig out the following passage from my trusty Concise Oxford Dictionary of Music, which may go some way towards helping:

"Comparing any choral page of Bach or Handel with many a one of Palestrina or Byrd, we find that from the point of view of the singer of any individual part they are not unlike; the differences which are more apparent to the listener spring chiefly from the following factors: (a) In the Palestrina composition the influence of the old modes may always be felt, whereas in every movement of the Bach music every phrase can be clearly assigned to either the major or the minor system - with well-defined modulations from one key to another. (b) In the Palestrina composition there is often a freer rhythm, the voice-parts largely moving each in its own rhythmic way, in accordance with the stresses of the words as uttered and with the requirements of effective expressional emphasis upon those words Such music was written and originally printed without bar-lines ..." etc etc - it goes on to distinguish harmonically-conceived compositional methods in the High Baroque from those conceived polyphonically in and previous to the Renaissance. In addition, Orlando Gibbons, while in many ways a transitional figure of his time, would still presumably have been conditioned by preceding ages' consideration of melody as primarily vocal in origin and therefore nature - this would have infused the melodic/'contrapuntal approach, character and spirit of his own music, although of course changes were in the offing, coming primarily from Italy, and already (arguably) starting to make themselves felt.

Ferney would put it far better (and more accurately) than me!

[Dave2002]

Thanks, though the works in question are not for singers, and if each part is truly independent then chaos will almost certainly ensue - and indeed often does in the way we play it!

Thus "I'm at bar 50" ...oh "I'm just halfway through bar 49" ...."I missed a line out, sorry"

[Serial_Apologist]

Thanks, though the works in question are not for singers, and if each part is truly independent then chaos will almost certainly ensue - and indeed often does in the way we play it!

Thus "I'm at bar 50" ...oh "I'm just halfway through bar 49" ...."I missed a line out, sorry"

The pont that was made was that the shape and feel of your melodies would still to an extent have been vocally conceived by the composer, who I think I'm right in thinking also wrote a good deal of vocal music? Not of course that this helps in the practical nature of your problem... but it might explain why!

[Joseph K]

From what I remember of my early music studies at uni, it was relatively late in the day (from the view point of the origins of Western music notation) that producing a full score would become commonplace.

[Dave2002]

The pont that was made was that the shape and feel of your melodies would still to an extent have been vocally conceived by the composer, who I think I'm right in thinking also wrote a good deal of vocal music? Not of course that this helps in the practical nature of your problem... but it might explain why!

Isn't this actually the case with a lot of music, whether conceived for voices or not? My recent experiences with software tools such as MuseScore, and also playing, sugggest that human performers almost always use a lot of flexibility, even if they think they're not - though some are more flexible than others. Automated players may be ruthlessly "mechanical" and usually sound very boring as a result - no attempt at phrasing and limited dynamics. However, some more intricate pieces do require careful meshing of parts in order to work well - and that's certainly the case in some parts of the works by Gibbons which we are attempting to play. Playing freely is great if everyone can work together in the same way, otherwise perhaps not.

[Serial_Apologist]

From what I remember of my early music studies at uni, it was relatively late in the day (from the view point of the origins of Western music notation) that producing a full score would become commonplace.

Convergence between design of instrument manufacture for ease and accuracy of performance, coupled with a standardised approach to overall sound in the transition from relatively small to orchestral forces, and the "copyright imperative" ownership association with selling music as product, all played their part in various overlapping stages in the emancipation of the score.

[MickyD]

I'd strongly suggest this newish recording, Dave, from the talented young François Joubert-Caillet, who is also doing great service to Marin Marais in his ongoing complete cycle.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Orlando-Gibbons-Fancies-Francois-Joubert-Caillet/dp/B075GBFQQS/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=Orlando+Gibbons&qid=1581069987&s=music&sr=1-3

[Dave2002]

Thanks for the tip. Duly ordered.

[Dave2002]

I've just been looking at a facsimile score of Handel's Messiah. That clearly has bar lines, though is also more than a century after Orlando Gibbons. I was surprised at the facsimile edition, which seems to date from the end of the 19th Century, though presumably by then photographic techniques had been developed to make that possible. There are marks referring to people, such as Mr Beard - and others, as well as crossings out.

[Dave2002]

Thanks for the tip. Duly ordered.

Unfortunately ... I have now been notified by Amazon that this was delivered today - "Package handed to resident". No it was not, and there doesn't seem to be an immediate and easy way to get this fixed. Ah well, more hassle, I expect. Having an online system where communications seem to be one way - that's really clever - not!

[Bryn]

Unfortunately ... I have now been notified by Amazon that this was delivered today - "Package handed to resident". No it was not, and there doesn't seem to be an immediate and easy way to get this fixed. Ah well, more hassle, I expect. Having an online system where communications seem to be one way - that's really clever - not!

I got one of those recently. I was out all day the delivery was falsely claimed to have taken place. Luckily, when I got home the following afternoon, it was to find the one of the wheelie bind has been move up onto the doorstep and the package tucked in behind it. No message to this effect was to be found either via the Internet or on a the usual card through the letterbox. Nothing! However, having been texted with the claim it was handed to the resident, I had followed the complaints procedure as far as finding one of the tick-box options was non-delivery, at which point I has relaxed in the thought that if the package had not been left near the door, or with a neighbour, I would have some recourse. Do let us know how you get on with taking this up with Amazon.

I would add that I chose not to make a complaint since the delivery person has clearly made a real attempt to conceal the package even though he or she had failed to report the fact accurately. They do work under very considerable time pressure and for not a lot.

[Dave2002]

I got one of those recently. I was out all day the delivery was falsely claimed to have taken place. Luckily, when I got home the following afternoon, it was to find the one of the wheelie bind has been move up onto the doorstep and the package tucked in behind it. No message to this effect was to be found either via the Internet or on a the usual card through the letterbox. Nothing! However, having been texted with the claim it was handed to the resident, I had followed the complaints procedure as far as finding one of the tick-box options was non-delivery, at which point I has relaxed in the thought that if the package had not been left near the door, or with a neighbour, I would have some recourse. Do let us know how you get on with taking this up with Amazon.

I would add that I chose not to make a complaint since the delivery person has clearly made a real attempt to conceal the package even though he or she had failed to report the fact accurately. They do work under very considerable time pressure and for not a lot.

I have now taken this issue up with the Resolver web site (http://resolver.co.uk/), and also found a way to contact Amazon Customer Service, which enabled me to provide my phone number for a ring back, and I have since had a conversation with one of the agents who was helpful.

It's just such a pain trying to track down who to contact. A web search will locate a telephone number which advertises a charge of £1.50 per minute - no way I'm going to use that one.

Actually once a reasonable way to contact Amazon has been found, the agents seem pretty much on the ball. I was phoned back within 2 minutes, and discussed the issue, and hopefully I'll either get the CD by tomorrow - if it's found - or a new one will be sent out.

[Dave2002]

Actually once a reasonable way to contact Amazon has been found, the agents seem pretty much on the ball. I was phoned back within 2 minutes, and discussed the issue, and hopefully I'll either get the CD by tomorrow - if it's found - or a new one will be sent out.

Indeed, I was phoned back again today to ask if the item had arrived today. Fortunately it came this morning - where it had been in the last day or two - who knows? Certainly not handed to this resident.

I would probably have tried to listen to the music on an online service (Youtube - see being tracked thread, Qobuz - don't think it's in there ....) but gave up looking so hopefully this Gibbons CD will have what I wanted to hear.

Oh dear - it's a nice CD, but I don't think the particular piece is on it. Track 13 is perhaps one of the pieces we have - I think that may be what we have as Fantasia 2 - but our Fantasia 1 is number 5 in the original set. Anyway, no worries - I like it enough to add it to my collection. I think track 13 is related to the one I want - sounds a bit like an inversion.

I'm still looking for a CD or download/streaming version of the exact piece. The top (Altus) part is on page 14 of this site http://ks.imslp.net/files/imglnks/us...parts_1620.pdf, so it would appear to be number 5 (V) of the set.

[MickyD]

Indeed, I was phoned back again today to ask if the item had arrived today. Fortunately it came this morning - where it had been in the last day or two - who knows? Certainly not handed to this resident.

I would probably have tried to listen to the music on an online service (Youtube - see being tracked thread, Qobuz - don't think it's in there ....) but gave up looking so hopefully this Gibbons CD will have what I wanted to hear.

Oh dear - it's a nice CD, but I don't think the particular piece is on it. Track 13 is perhaps one of the pieces we have - I think that may be what we have as Fantasia 2 - but our Fantasia 1 is number 5 in the original set. Anyway, no worries - I like it enough to add it to my collection. I think track 13 is related to the one I want - sounds a bit like an inversion.

I'm still looking for a CD or download/streaming version of the exact piece. The top (Altus) part is on page 14 of this site http://ks.imslp.net/files/imglnks/us...parts_1620.pdf, so it would appear to be number 5 (V) of the set.

Oh what a shame, Dave...I feel guilty at having recommended this CD now that I hear it didn't contain what you want! And all that delivery hassle, too. But I fear that Gibbons viol recordings are rather few...