Most innovative composer

[Serial_Apologist]

He even invented jazz in Op 111 didn’t he ?

The famous John Lewis (pianist of the Modern Jazz Quartet) is actually attributed the words, "He really swung, your Johann Sebastian Bach!" When I put this to Jaki Byard, an American pianist who worked with Charles Mingus and Roland Kirk among others, asking how seriously this comment of John Lewis's should be taken to be, he just answered that "Now BRAHMS, your BRAHMS - he really DID swing!" But I'm not always sure how literally jazz musicians are to be taken, especially great ones.

If the list is solely based on piano music where the hell is Alkan?

Or John Field, whose innovations in piano sonorities is widely accepted as having influenced Chopin's.

[Pulcinella]

There’s a piece in the Times about it . It’s based on piano music and chord progressions . So good for Rach and bad for Haydn

As I mentioned in post #2.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

It’s based on piano music and chord progressions .

Even with such limiting criteria, it's bizarre that Sergei is considered "more innovative" than Schumann, Liszt, Chopin, Debussy, Scriabin, Schönberg ...

Amongst the most inventive and original composers are those late 17th/early 18th Century composers who started writing independent instrumental Music intended to be performed in front of a listening audience. So novel was the idea of the "Sonata" that many commentators were moved to write protests against the very idea that a succession of sounds - with no resource to words or physical movement - could be regarded as making any kind of "sense", have any meaning or purpose. The most famous - and one of the most restrained - in this regard was Fontenelle's comment (reported by Rameau) "Sonata - what do you want of me?" (In effect "what in blazes am I supposed to do whilst this is going on?")

Unrestricted by later conventions of form/structure, the invention, imagination, and revelling in discovering what can be done is a real joy. And their innovations created the attitudes to listening to Music that we take for granted today.

[Serial_Apologist]

Even with such limiting criteria, it's bizarre that Sergei is considered "more innovative" than Schumann, Liszt, Chopin, Debussy, Scriabin, Schönberg ...

Amongst the most inventive and original composers are those late 17th/early 18th Century composers who started writing independent instrumental Music intended to be performed in front of a listening audience. So novel was the idea of the "Sonata" that many commentators were moved to write protests against the very idea that a succession of sounds - with no resource to words or physical movement - could be regarded as making any kind of "sense", have any meaning or purpose. The most famous - and one of the most restrained - in this regard was Fontenelle's comment (reported by Rameau) "Sonata - what do you want of me?" (In effect "what in blazes am I supposed to do whilst this is going on?")

Unrestricted by later conventions of form/structure, the invention, imagination, and revelling in discovering what can be done is a real joy. And their innovations created the attitudes to listening to Music that we take for granted today.

I'd never thought about it in those terms before.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Even with such limiting criteria, it's bizarre that Sergei is considered "more innovative" than Schumann, Liszt, Chopin, Debussy, Scriabin, Schönberg ...

Amongst the most inventive and original composers are those late 17th/early 18th Century composers who started writing independent instrumental Music intended to be performed in front of a listening audience. So novel was the idea of the "Sonata" that many commentators were moved to write protests against the very idea that a succession of sounds - with no resource to words or physical movement - could be regarded as making any kind of "sense", have any meaning or purpose. The most famous - and one of the most restrained - in this regard was Fontenelle's comment (reported by Rameau) "Sonata - what do you want of me?" (In effect "what in blazes am I supposed to do whilst this is going on?")

Unrestricted by later conventions of form/structure, the invention, imagination, and revelling in discovering what can be done is a real joy. And their innovations created the attitudes to listening to Music that we take for granted today.

I think the chord progressions in Rachmaninov can be quite complex at first sight . But an awful lot are essentially cycle of fifths or modified versions thereof. I would love to know the basis of this research. Do you get extra points for seconds , sixths , ninths and sevenths on basic minor / major chords. If so Rach is going to score highly .

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I'd never thought about it in those terms before.

Highly recommended:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Absolute-Music-Mark-Evan-Bonds/dp/0190851171

... a bit more "partisan" (and a lot more expensive):

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Absolute-Construction-Meaning-Perspectives-Criticism/dp/0521631815

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Do you get extra points for seconds , sixths , ninths and sevenths on basic minor / major chords. If so Rach is going to score highly .

Well, so is Debussy, Ravel, and Scriabin - and their Music isn't as rooted <ho-ho> in conventional functional harmony as you point out Rachmaninov's is. The more one thinks about this list <ho-ho-ho> the more it appears to be intended to start discussion rather than provide anything of any genuine value. If so, it's done its job!

[vinteuil]

So novel was the idea of the "Sonata" that many commentators were moved to write protests against the very idea that a succession of sounds - with no resource to words or physical movement - could be regarded as making any kind of "sense", have any meaning or purpose. The most famous - and one of the most restrained - in this regard was Fontenelle's comment (reported by Rameau) "Sonata - what do you want of me?" (In effect "what in blazes am I supposed to do whilst this is going on?")

..or 'sonata - what does that mean?'

https://symposium.music.org/index.php/43/item/2195-fontenelles-famous-question-and-performance-standards-of-the-day

.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Well, so is Debussy, Ravel, and Scriabin - and their Music isn't as rooted <ho-ho> in conventional functional harmony as you point out Rachmaninov's is. The more one thinks about this list <ho-ho-ho> the more it appears to be intended to start discussion rather than provide anything of any genuine value. If so, it's done its job!

Perhaps you get extra points for chords with lots of notes in. There are quite a few 10 finger moments in Rach but then Scriabin was no slouch in that respect either ....

[Serial_Apologist]

Perhaps you get extra points for chords with lots of notes in. There are quite a few 10 finger moments in Rach but then Scriabin was no slouch in that respect either ....

Some Charles Ives piano music requires elbows or extended pieces of wood to be able to play all the notes scored simultaneously.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

IVES!!! Of course! You want innovative piano chords? Feast yer lug'oles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izFgt2tZ0Oc

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

With the criteria mentioned, I'n staggered to see Tchaikovsky anywhere on the list. Don't get me wrong - I love Tchaikovsky's music, but I have to concede that his piano music, though good in parts, isn't that great, and he would never have made it as on of the "greats", had he written only his piano music, whereas the other 18 most probably would have done.

[LeMartinPecheur]

Even with such limiting criteria, it's bizarre that Sergei is considered "more innovative" than Schumann, Liszt, Chopin, Debussy, Scriabin, Schönberg ...

Based on just a brief encounter with the music?

[LMcD]

Based on just a brief encounter with the music?

Thank you for reminding me of Victoria Wood's reaction when Bill Patterson tries to persuade her to head for Africa with him.

[Bryn]

IVES!!! Of course! You want innovative piano chords? Feast yer lug'oles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izFgt2tZ0Oc

Ives's Universe Symphony was pretty innovatory in that he invited others to have a go at making something of it. A few have tried and Johnny Reinhard's realisation is to be performed by the Bochumer Symphoniker on 6th May and broadcast on 21sr May from a little after 20:00 hrs CET.

https://www.koelner-philharmonie.de/de/programm/charles-ives-universe-symphony/124119?fbclid=IwAR3sQXC_XqFU23If5hjsuhwCE-Ybkt0APinBucOxHqA9Wc0NYiHGzzNDRbo

I will not be able to attend but hope to get someone to record the broadcast is as high quality they can.