Holst's Planets Suite - and More

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  • NatBalance
    Full Member
    • Oct 2015
    • 257

    Holst's Planets Suite - and More

    No not Patrick :) In another thread of mine the subject got diverted onto The Planets suite and adding to it, and I don't mind a bit of diversion if it's about Holst, then I thought 'Perhaps this diversion really needs its own thread' …. so …. VWALAH! …. Here it is!

    I rather fancy the idea of adding to Holst's masterpiece. A vast suite to represent other astronomical bodies aswell, perhaps even man made ones, BUT …. such music I think would have to copy Holst's style otherwise I cannot see the piece holding together as one piece, it would just be a mishmash, and there's nothing wrong with a mishmash piece, but I think that's another project.

    First thing to consider with this project is the title. Not sure the title The Planets and Beyond would do, as I think it would mainly representing objects within the solar system …. or would it?

    Second thing to consider is the ending. Holst really buggered up adding Pluto, or adding anything to the ending didn't he the little rascal? How can you follow Neptune? …. Well …. does a piece representing further away objects like Pluto actually have to follow Neptune? The first three planets in Holst's piece are not in their correct astronomical order (they are actually exactly in reverse order). I reckon Pluto could just about go somewhere else, I know it would be a bit odd but better than following Neptune, also, I'm not quite sure if it isn't Pluto that's orbit is so eliptical it can sometimes cross Neptune's. As for representing Voyager it would perhaps be much more difficult to not have that at the end. I think you could do interesting things with Voyager. It could perhaps be a theme, like in Mussorgsky's Pictures from an Exhibition there is the theme that represents the visitor walking from picture to picture. Voyager could be a little theme that keeps close to the planets it passed before it flew out into the unknown. And …. it could be included within Neptune at the end. Perhaps Neptune's ending could be stretched out a bit to include a bit of Voyager popping in and then dissapearing to let Neptune's rocking chords finish the piece off just as in the original. Yes, not a bad idea, I'm rather pleased with that.

    Third thing to consider is that each additional piece has to have a character, like Mars is the god of war, Pluto in Colin Matthew's piece is the renewer, and the music has to paint that character. I'm listening to Matthew's piece now, and although it is a brilliant piece, it does not say 'renewer' to me. If I were to compose such a piece I think I would start off with music that sounds a bit like its worn out, a melody perhaps that just can't get going properly, then gradually wake the melody (or effect, rhythm or whatever) up as the piece progresses. A bit like Knut Nystedt's masterpiece Immortal Bach but in reverse.

    What do you think folks?
  • LMcD
    Full Member
    • Sep 2017
    • 8460

    #2
    I think the piece is fine as it is. It begins with violence and ends with peace.
    Last edited by LMcD; 08-11-19, 11:12.

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    • NatBalance
      Full Member
      • Oct 2015
      • 257

      #3
      Of course it is, but what's wrong with having a bit of fun with it? It's like modifying a car, it's a bit of fun. As long as we've still got examples of the original. It's like not having fun with Paganini's famous theme and saying it's fine as it is.

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      • Richard Barrett
        Guest
        • Jan 2016
        • 6259

        #4
        Originally posted by LMcD View Post
        I think the piece is fine as it is.
        Yes indeed. There is no musical reason whatsoever to add another movement to it any more than there'd be a reason to add another movement to a Mozart symphony: the successions of different musical characters in the various movements was carefully composed by Holst, so that they form a satisfying order, which isn't of course their order of distance from the sun, or anything else apart from an expression of Holst's conception of the whole piece, which is astrological rather than astronomical, and of course Pluto, having been discovered in 1930, plays no part in astrology, as "renewer" or anything else. Does Matthews' appendix stand comparison with what Holst wrote? I don't think so. "Neptune" is a deeply considered and beautiful ending. Adding extra movements to a popular piece smacks to me of an attempt parasitically to gain more attention for one's own work. Otherwise why not just write an independent piece?

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        • Richard Barrett
          Guest
          • Jan 2016
          • 6259

          #5
          Originally posted by NatBalance View Post
          It's like not having fun with Paganini's famous theme and saying it's fine as it is.
          That's a silly comparison if you don't mind me saying. Making variations on a brief theme and adding bits to an orchestral score that lasts three quarters of an hour are two different things.

          What gives you the impression that composing is supposed to be fun?

          Comment

          • NatBalance
            Full Member
            • Oct 2015
            • 257

            #6
            Originally posted by Richard Barrett View Post
            What gives you the impression that composing is supposed to be fun?
            Sorry, yes you're right, rediculous of me to even suggest such a thing

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            • Serial_Apologist
              Full Member
              • Dec 2010
              • 37678

              #7
              Originally posted by NatBalance View Post
              It's like modifying a car, it's a bit of fun.
              A dead ringer...

              Comment

              • Serial_Apologist
                Full Member
                • Dec 2010
                • 37678

                #8
                Originally posted by NatBalance View Post
                …. so …. VWALAH! …. Here it is!
                We know that Holst was interested in Hindu mythology and ideas as well as astrology, but not if his friend Vaughan Williams was in Islam!

                Comment

                • oddoneout
                  Full Member
                  • Nov 2015
                  • 9188

                  #9
                  Planets Suite(bits of) very much flavour of the month in the morning schedules.

                  Comment

                  • Serial_Apologist
                    Full Member
                    • Dec 2010
                    • 37678

                    #10
                    Originally posted by oddoneout View Post
                    Planets Suite(bits of) very much flavour of the month in the morning schedules.
                    Ah, that would be "The Asteroids Suite".

                    Comment

                    • oddoneout
                      Full Member
                      • Nov 2015
                      • 9188

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
                      Ah, that would be "The Asteroids Suite".
                      Hmm, just asteroids I think; 'suite' implies some sort of cohesion,structure, even dare I say, thought, which 'bleeding chunks' are not...

                      Comment

                      • gradus
                        Full Member
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 5607

                        #12
                        A coupleof days ago I happened to listen to a 2018 recording of the VPO under Franz Welser-Most playing Mars - don't know if the remaining movements were recorded. It made me think that there might be something in the idea that music has a national identity that some orchestras/conductors get and others don't, or perhaps it's simply that some conductors just seem to miss the spirit of the music.

                        Comment

                        • Eine Alpensinfonie
                          Host
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 20570

                          #13
                          Originally posted by gradus View Post
                          A coupleof days ago I happened to listen to a 2018 recording of the VPO under Franz Welser-Most playing Mars - don't know if the remaining movements were recorded. It made me think that there might be something in the idea that music has a national identity that some orchestras/conductors get and others don't, or perhaps it's simply that some conductors just seem to miss the spirit of the music.
                          Karajan did a pretty good job on the Planets with both Vienna and Berlin Philharmonic Orchestras. Franz Welser-Most isn't the most inspiring of conductors at the best of times.

                          Comment

                          • Eine Alpensinfonie
                            Host
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 20570

                            #14
                            And of course, as Pluto is no longer a planet, the problem is solved.

                            Just play the Matthews work as a separate item. Radio 3 should like that.

                            Comment

                            • jayne lee wilson
                              Banned
                              • Jul 2011
                              • 10711

                              #15
                              Beyond the Planets Suite for electronics and orchestra

                              prelude: Sentinel (should played almost inaudibly before conductor enters, fading up as audience settles...)
                              1) Big Bang - The Universe expands.....
                              interlude: Sentinel
                              2) Voyager - Beyond Pluto
                              interlude: Sentinel
                              3) Discovery - The Infinite and Beyond
                              4) The Universe Contracts
                              postlude: the Sentinel remains: everything has changed, nothing has changed....
                              (should still be just audible through bows, applause, and as audience leave the hall...)
                              Last edited by jayne lee wilson; 08-11-19, 20:41.

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