HIPP (Historically Informed Performing Practice)

[doversoul1]

I apologise for double (triple ) posting but I think this article may be of some interest to the forum members who have wondered what the fuss is all about.

Bach to the future: how period performers revolutionised classical music
By Nicholas Kenyon

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2019/nov/01/nicholas-kenyon-early-music-revival-period-instruments-classical-music-baroque-authentic

Nicholas Kenyon’s six-part series The Future of the Past – Early Music Today begins on BBC Radio 3 on 3 November at 11pm and available on BBC Sounds.

I’d be most grateful if the forum members who have the experience and the knowledge of the subject would add their thoughts.

[jayne lee wilson]

I can't claim any experience, my untutored knowledge is purely as a listener which may not be what you want.... but I'll read the link and will listen to the program for sure....(got to get that walk in while light prevails, mud or bust...)...
(On a speed-read.... well-balanced piece I thought.... "Authentic" is a tricky word/concept, isn't it?)...

For me it is all about an open mind and a musically/interpretatively fresh, revitalising approach...ditto listening & above all perhaps, no sweeping dismissals either way... all about how the sound falls upon the ear...
(Those new Brautigam/Willens Beethoven Concertos perfect case-in-point...in an autumn of many advance-250 Beethoven Concertos, my god...!)

Fascinating wider philosophical questions though...

[BBMmk2]

Ah, that old adage again! Yes, I’m all for HIPP, so long as it’s in good taste and not so eccentrically done! I’m not so keen on The Dunedin Consort’s approach, I’m more in the Gardiner/Suzuki mood I think. They seem to have it in a nutshell.

I’m not a specialist in this genre, this is my opinion, based on my years of experience in listening.

[oddoneout]

This from 'Something for a Friday: All of Bach' might be of interest in this context, especially the second clip about baroque bows.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=i8UNFbGzFMM

The photograph at the top of the Guardian article brought back memories of playing Susato et al, outside, in costume, in the summer of '76 - an interesting experience.

[Richard Barrett]

Of course the article is very short and skims over a lot of detail as well as the fact that the HIPP movement is quite a lot more than 50 years old, although Kenyon of course knows what he's talking about and I'm sure his radio series will be interesting enough.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

the Gardiner/Suzuki mood I think. They seem to have it in a nutshell.

Which demonstrates the malleability of the very expression "Historically-Informed". Both conductors take whatever "historic information" appeals to them (mainly matters of tempi, articulation, and instrumental timbre) whilst ignoring that which doesn't - such as size of ensembles, and the use adult & women singers. The results also appeal to a great many listeners, but I think it a mistake to think of either as being "fully informed" performance practitioners.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

My own experience with these matters began very inauspiciously - when I was about 16 or 17, I borrowed the first Harnoncourt recording of the B minor Mass, and absolutely hated it: the noises from the instrumentalists I found totally risible, especially the squeaks and skwarks from the solo Horn in the Quoniam tu solus Sanctus. A broadcast of the Eroica (a Live performance given by, I think, the Collegium Aureum) only confirmed that the sounds produced got in the way of the Music as I wanted to hear it - and for over a decade, I avoided all contact with it.

So, it wasn't until the late '80s when a CD was being played in Seaford Music in Eastbourne that completely caught my attention - the Linde Consort Brandenburgs; so much that I couldn't leave the shop until I'd heard the whole of the first disc. Here were performances that not only presented the "zip" of the Music that I'd been imagining as I read the scores (but had failed to hear in the Marriner, Leppard, or I Musici recordings) - but also instrumental "tangs" that I'd never dreamt of before in my wildest dreams. That was it - I wanted to explore this sort of performance more: the next revelation was the Pinnock/Standage Four Seasons - boring old Vivaldi, sounding fresh and inventive - and individual. There's been no stopping me in the 30 years since.

I subsequently discovered (via the old BBC Messageboards, no less) that that Harnoncourt B Minor Mass from the 1960s had attempted to use instruments dating back to Bach's time - and probably not played since then - by players still getting used to such (largely unreconstructed) instruments, rather than later performances on modern reproductions of the old instruments. These days, those Leonhardt/Harnoncourt Bach Cantatas are greatly treasured as performances in their own right. (And how many complete editions of the Bach Cantatas would we have available to us today if it weren't for the HIPP "movements"? Let alone recordings of Biber, Strozzi, Lawes, Heinichen, Zelenka, etc etc etc?)

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

the Marriner, Leppard, or I Musici recordings

Along with Munchinger, Dart, Richter and others, themselves "Historically Informed" for their time.

[cloughie]

Along with Munchinger, Dart, Richter and others, themselves "Historically Informed" for their time.

I absolutely agree with you about the Harnoncourt and Collegium Aureum of the late sixties which compared to the vitality of Marriner, Leppard and I Musici recordings at the time were just plain dull. Marriner's Argo Four Seasons was not stodgy Vivaldi though fernie, even if I agree that Pinnock and Hogwood added a new dimension. Dart was a revelation but Munchinger less so and Richter was unexciting but Mackerras' Handel - returning to an all woodwind Fireworks and a lighter touch for The Messiah - was good!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Which demonstrates the malleability of the very expression "Historically-Informed". Both conductors take whatever "historic information" appeals to them (mainly matters of tempi, articulation, and instrumental timbre) whilst ignoring that which doesn't - such as size of ensembles, and the use adult & women singers. The results also appeal to a great many listeners, but I think it a mistake to think of either as being "fully informed" performance practitioners.

This applies to many others too. Which is why I generally regard HIPP as meaning "How I Prefer Playing"

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Marriner's Argo Four Seasons was not stodgy Vivaldi though fernie

I certainly preferred it to the dull I Musici LP, which was the first I bought - but I still found it very uninteresting and superficial; made me think that Vivaldi was a very third-rate composer. Pinnock began the process of my reassessment - Drottningholm, Europa Galante, and others completed it.

[richardfinegold]

My own experience with these matters began very inauspiciously - when I was about 16 or 17, I borrowed the first Harnoncourt recording of the B minor Mass, and absolutely hated it: the noises from the instrumentalists I found totally risible, especially the squeaks and skwarks from the solo Horn in the Quoniam tu solus Sanctus. A broadcast of the Eroica (a Live performance given by, I think, the Collegium Aureum) only confirmed that the sounds produced got in the way of the Music as I wanted to hear it - and for over a decade, I avoided all contact with it.

So, it wasn't until the late '80s when a CD was being played in Seaford Music in Eastbourne that completely caught my attention - the Linde Consort Brandenburgs; so much that I couldn't leave the shop until I'd heard the whole of the first disc. Here were performances that not only presented the "zip" of the Music that I'd been imagining as I read the scores (but had failed to hear in the Marriner, Leppard, or I Musici recordings) - but also instrumental "tangs" that I'd never dreamt of before in my wildest dreams. That was it - I wanted to explore this sort of performance more: the next revelation was the Pinnock/Standage Four Seasons - boring old Vivaldi, sounding fresh and inventive - and individual. There's been no stopping me in the 30 years since.

I subsequently discovered (via the old BBC Messageboards, no less) that that Harnoncourt B Minor Mass from the 1960s had attempted to use instruments dating back to Bach's time - and probably not played since then - by players still getting used to such (largely unreconstructed) instruments, rather than later performances on modern reproductions of the old instruments. These days, those Leonhardt/Harnoncourt Bach Cantatas are greatly treasured as performances in their own right. (And how many complete editions of the Bach Cantatas would we have available to us today if it weren't for the HIPP "movements"? Let alone recordings of Biber, Strozzi, Lawes, Heinichen, Zelenka, etc etc etc?)

Fascinating trivia regarding your last sentence, Ferney. According to wiki, the first revival of Zelenka was by that eminent HIPP
Practioner Bedrich Smetena, who copied scores that he found in a Dresden library and presented them in Prague in 1863. The first recordings of Zelenka were in the mid 1950s by small Czech ensembles and may not have gotten much exposure in the West. The first Zelenka recordings that I remember were by Camerata Bern, I think, and I think that they used modern instruments, but I’m not sure.
More generally, I am not sure that HIPP was necessary to stimulate interest in relatively unknown pre Classical era Composers. Interest in J.S.B. and Handel, amongst others, was prevalent in earlier generations, and I think that it only would have been a matter of time, once the trauma of WW II and the onset of the Cold War had passed, before enterprising Musicians and listeners would have wanted to explore more, regardless of the types of instruments utilized. The results would have sounded different than what we have come to expect as the norm for pre Classical Era Music, but not un recognizably so.

[Richard Barrett]

when I was about 16 or 17, I borrowed the first Harnoncourt recording of the B minor Mass, and absolutely hated it: the noises from the instrumentalists I found totally risible, especially the squeaks and skwarks from the solo Horn in the Quoniam tu solus Sanctus.

That same B minor Mass recording was (courtesy of my own local library, at a slightly younger age) the first I ever heard of the work, and I loved it at first hearing and still listen to it sometimes. (And, since you mention it, the Collegium Aureum's Eroica too, which I found incredibly exciting when it came out.) The first time I heard those pioneering HIPP recordings everything slotted into place for me and it wasn't long before I lost interest in performances and recordings in "modern" (that is to say 19th/early 20th century) style. The field has become so diversified in the meantime and hardly anyone these days performs music from before 1750 without some strong influences from the HIPP movement. I take on board Taruskin's opinion that HIPP is actually better thought of as the "modern" performing style of the late 20th/early 21st century but I would add that for me it's about getting as close as possible to what kind of sonic impression the music, whatever it is, would have made when it was newly imagined and realised, in other words making it sound new (rather than old!).

[Bryn]

That same B minor Mass recording was (courtesy of my own local library, at a slightly younger age) the first I ever heard of the work, and I loved it at first hearing and still listen to it sometimes. (And, since you mention it, the Collegium Aureum's Eroica too, which I found incredibly exciting when it came out.) The first time I heard those pioneering HIPP recordings everything slotted into place for me and it wasn't long before I lost interest in performances and recordings in "modern" (that is to say 19th/early 20th century) style. The field has become so diversified in the meantime and hardly anyone these days performs music from before 1750 without some strong influences from the HIPP movement. I take on board Taruskin's opinion that HIPP is actually better thought of as the "modern" performing style of the late 20th/early 21st century but I would add that for me it's about getting as close as possible to what kind of sonic impression the music, whatever it is, would have made when it was newly imagined and realised, in other words making it sound new (rather than old!).

In the late 1970s, Orchesography (late of Cecil Court, off Charing Cross Road) offered my introduction to many early attempts at HIPP on disc. That 'Eroica' plus several other Beethoven recordings on the Harmonia Mundi label were revelations to my ears. Those involving the late, lamented, Paul Badura-Skoda stand out, especially the 4th Piano Concerto and Triple Concerto. The recording of the 4th Piano Concerto included both of Beethoven's extant cadenzas for the first movement. Sadly, when that recording made it to CD, only the most commonly used Beethoven cadenza was included.

[Richard Barrett]

Those involving the late, lamented, Paul Badura-Skoda stand out, especially the 4th Piano Concerto and Triple Concerto. The recording of the 4th Piano Concerto included both of Beethoven's extant cadenzas

And an amazing performance of op.77!